Who trains neijia primarily for self-defense?

[EARTH DRAGON]

No that is not what I am saying at all, please re read my posts. thanks E.D.
It is impossible to pull out part of my entire point and make an assumtion with a sentance or two. My posts are about the primary to secondary reason or should I say purpose of the training of combat applications vs non combative applications.

The reason we invented airplanes was not to have means of protecting the skies for war, but to expand our growth as a explorers. In turn we did have the ability to protect our country in flight, but that was not the mind set for the invention.

[maoshan]

I, don't have access to all my old notes and books, so i'm going to wing this with the best of my memory.

Dong meng Lin Did not exist.
You say you know for a fact that he did. How?
My thing is Ba-Gua, All aspects including history. Dong Hai Chuan
is the sole inventor. You know, you've inspired me to complete an article I never finished on the origin of Ba-Gua.

As to Martial arts history, I still disagree with you.
According to a book written by Kang Ge Wu called(I think)" The Spring and Autume period of martial arts". Shows cronologicly the development of martial arts in china. It Shows(Again from my Memory) that for example that martial arts were being used at lest 2000yrs before the birth of Da Mo. The styles had no connection with or to any religous, meditational or health aspects.

I'm writting this with out any referances because by the time I can view my notes this thread will be long over with. but I know what I know.
The same author (Kang) did the most Intense investigation on Ba-Gua known, being he Him self is a Ba-Gua practitioner. And we've had a lot of coorspondance over the years. and I'm Convinced with his findings.

Now I think you've been mis-understood on your point because your point had nothing to do with the Question. Weather or not these art began with religous or meditational or what ever.
the question was (paraphrased) " Who trained thier art for self defense?" The origins of these arts had nothing to do with the question. No disrespect intended here, at all.

Please answer the Dong meng lin question. How did you conferm his existance?

Maoshan

[EARTH DRAGON]

you said Now I think you've been mis-understood on your point because your point had nothing to do with the Question. Weather or not these art began with religous or meditational or what ever.
the question was (paraphrased) " Who trained thier art for self defense?" The origins of these arts had nothing to do with the question. No disrespect intended here, at all.

trust me I know, my point was simply going by what some one said after the thread was posted about his response "thats the reason that internal martial arts were invented for combat" then I said funny how that got turned around and thats not the reson. it actully has nothing to do with the thread and I aplogize to the thread starter for vering way off the topic but my simple statement. soory guys

As for Dong Meng Lin he was a daoist monk who lived in the jiu hua mountains in anhui province near my teachers teachers home town. I cant remember the master before him but i can assure you that he did indeed exsist. he was called Huang Guan Dao Ren which means something like cape wearing monk. I know this becuse it is in our lineage of 8 step praying mantis named after 8 short and 8 long steps of ba gua and has been passed down both written and orally for 6 generations... i would ask you why you would think that he didnt exsist? how can you name someone who never exsisted?

[Sam Wiley]

Earth Dragon,
I think he means that Dong Meng-lin was supposedly a fictional character. That's all I've ever heard of him being until now. He's sort of like Bagua's version of Taiji's Chang San-feng. Neither one was supposed to have existed, yet we have several styles today claiming to be descended from them. I'm not familiar with any of the mantis disciplines at all, so that's probably the reason I have never heard he existed for real. I'd love to read copies of the stories, though, as I love to read about "semi-mythical" figures.

I guess since I haven't answered the original question yet, I should go ahead and say that I practice for self-defence. Whew, that was hard.

[Chris McKinley]

Hey maoshan, nice to hear from you on this.

Earth Dragon,

As others have made most of the arguments I would make already, I won't rehash. You seem both sincere and convinced in your opinions, and I believe that for certain points we will simply have to agree to disagree.

You did ask, however, "how can you name someone who never exsisted?
". The same way one might name any number of fictional characters from legend, myth, or undocumented rumor. Perhaps the greater point here is that Dong Hai Chuan is the first verifiably documented practitioner of Baguazhang, whether or not he was truly the first person to practice the art.

[maoshan]

How are you Chris?

Earth Dragon

You just floored me with this. out side of ba-Gua I've never heard of Dong Meng Lin and now to associate his name with Mantis?????????

I don't have my Notes especially the ones from Kang Ge Wu But I'm going to try to write this from memory.
prior to a book written by Jen (it's all I can remember of his name)
called Yin Yang Pa Ban chang, pub. sometime in the 30's, Dong Meng lin's name is not found. at lest not with Ba-gua.
In fact it was discovered that this Pa pan version came from Dong Hai chuan's student Fan Zi Yong. Jen had concocted his story when writting his book. In could write more but the memories are starting to conflict and overlap other origin stories.

I'm going to get my notes and finish the article i wrote of previously. when I do I'm going to post it on my site.

While Dong meng lin may have indeed existed.
he has nothing to do with ba-Gua. Every Style of the system can be traced right back to Dong Hai Chauan. What is taught as part of the taoist tradition, was walking the circle with a change of direction using the tai Chi diagram while Chanting. Dong took this as his basis
and changed it accordingly. the various stepping methods were created by Dong.

I'm courious, If Wong Long created the mantis style, and I have charts as well, I've come across a total of (I think)18 variations of the mantis, (learned northern mantis for 4yrs). While that stuff is way in my past. In the lineage charts I can remember, I don't recall seeing his name. Where does he fit in with Wong? If mantis is about 300 yrs old from Shaolin, Dong a taoist A HIGH LEVEL ONE at that, Ba-Gua is about 150Yrs old. Look I'm not trying to cause nothing here but the math does not mesh could you please explain this?Maybe I'm missing something.

Maoshan

[EARTH DRAGON]

Sam dont you want to add something to your last sentacne... LOL seems way to short

moeshan,
the reason for my mention of praying mantis was not from josi wong long but from our systems creator Jiang Hua Long, he created 8 step by replacing the monkey foot work with ba gua footowrk which was more effeicient and angular allowing one to move around his oppoent with less energy and more agility. Again my knowldge of lineage in ba gua is very limited but I do know that jiang hua long studied ba gua in the hebei province from Chen Ting Hua, and it is said that he was Dong Meng Lin's students sons. I dont not know of his connection or lineage for we were only interested in how and who jiang hua long learned ba gua from. Before or after I have no knowldge of, but I am sure that someone out here may have more, agin this is just what has been told to me through my shrfu shyun kwan long from taipei so It may be written or just oral translation but I have not seen anything else to prove me other wise. So therfore if his name is mentioned as so and so teacher I automatically assumed he exsisted, heck some peopl ethink robin hood never exsisted!!!!!!!!

[maoshan]

Earth Dragon,

My info Is a Bit Different than yours.
Chiang hua Long exchanged tec's. with his two good friends
Wang chung chin a master of Tong Bei and Chen Sa Den an Expert in Ba-Gua. Through this relationship Did Chiang modify his long arm and stepping methods.

Cheng Ting Hua only taught in Beijing and the Cheng family Village
which is in Sheng County, Hebei provance. And he only taught his family. most of which came to beijing to learn from him. he returned home once a year on his mothers birthday and to make corrections.
now in order for chiang Hua long to make the modifications he made, it would take time for assimilation. the week long visits of Cheng Ting Hua once a year is not condusive for this.

[ Again my knowldge of lineage in ba gua is very limited but I do know that jiang hua long studied ba gua in the hebei province from Chen Ting Hua, and it is said that he was Dong Meng Lin's students sons. I dont not know of his connection or lineage for we were only interested in how and who jiang hua long learned ba gua from]

What student are you refering to? and if he were the son of one of Dong Meng Lin's student's, why would he have to learn from cheng ting hua? who was indeed a master of the system but did not recieve all of Dong hai Chuans system.(to explain this I would really have to go indeph in order for those not familiar with ba-Gua history).

oops I have to go. I would write more But I think it's enough.

Maoshan

[EARTH DRAGON]

I am sure you have far more knowldge then me on the lineage for as I said I was not very interested in learning all the history of the addtions to mantis to create 8 step but just the basics, and if I can remember my teacher spoke of jiang hua long wanting to improve his stepping patterns turned to a ba gua master this master as far as I know was chen ting hua and that he had a glass business or factory in which jiang worked for repayment of the favor for teaching him. As far as the once a year thing went I do not know how or when it was and again all this is oral tradtion told to me 6 generations later so I am sure much is lost mentally as well as translation for my teacher speaks very broken english, but the only fact that I know is that 8 step is ba gua, how and when and who taught it I do not know for sure, I was not there He He but all I can go by is what has been passed down in our system from master to shrfu.... if you do have anyhting further I would love to hear please repond.. thanx your freind E.D

[maoshan]

Earth Dragon


[Not to argue and with all due respect but I do speak mandarin]

If you do, what's the point in saying that your teacher speaks broken english, can't you converse with him? I know that there are different dialets but i'm sure that you could have thought of something.
I mean as a dedicated martial artist, you would have tried anything to get a better understanding of what was being conveyed to you. Including the history.

What are you talking about?
First, you claim that you don't care about the history of how the modifications were made. Alright I still have a problem with that but next.

[ all this is oral tradtion told to me 6 generations later]

The math does not fit.
Cheng Ting Hua was a second generation practioner I'm 6th generation practioner. There's a hundred years difference here.
Much too wide a gape.

{but the only fact that I know is that 8 step is ba gua}

8 step mantis is not Ba-Gua If it was I would know it.
Do you use the Mud step, Crain step, Lion step, Snake step, ETC...
NO you don't.
You know nothing about Ba-Gua, to try to compare it to mantis.
But I do know some mantis, and the only stepping method it could possibly use is the Kao Bu and Ba Bu step out of the 7 star stance. Now it may use the Bamboo step out of the Xing-I school to deliver some of the long range blows, but again that is still a far cry from Ba-Gua.
My brother and you got into a dispute a while back he informs me, because you insisted that there was no application with push hands. Stay with your mantis, the Internal is not what you know
and your research is less than what it should be.

Your approuch is two faced. Either you know or you don't know.
In one thread you know, in another you don't, don't play us.
there are some of use on the site that are truly dedicated to these arts.

Maoshan

[blacktaoist]

Hey Maoshan, You didn't have to be that hard on Earth Dragon.

Earth Dragon I Would like to know where in eight step mastis is BaGuaZhang techniques?

Also from my own research of Cheng T'ing Hua lineage of students, there is no person by the name jiang hua long.

I think you need to more research Peace.