Animals of Wing Chun

[LoneTiger108]

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I don't do current "mainland" wc-good Ip Man wc is good enough for me..I don't have to think of animals to do chin na, train the fingers, etc...all extensions of continued wc training when done well.

joy chaudhuri

Yes Joy, I don't do current "mainland" WCK either. Just good old Ip Man WCK with Lee Shing/Joe Mans personality stamped on it. I have, at least, met and watched the Foshan groups demonstrate in person and can see the similarities and differences. Still, I've yet to see anything else from the mainland that catches my attention so I can see your view too.

You didn't even answer my question



What do you call this single leg technique?

[Graham H]

Your lineage may not have animal elements, but other lineages do. The presence of the Dragon is intrinsic in many kung fu styles.

I'm not concerned with other lineages outside Ip Man. Tried Foshan Wing Chun once upon a time.......rubbish!!

The Mainland Chinese lineage that I practice has Tiger elements that manifest later on in training. For example the beginners are taught to lap sao in a "normal" wing chun manner, but furhter along training the lap becomes a Tiger Claw grab and pull. Tiger style throat attacks are also taught. The tiger claw is then taught in other Chin-na type attacks/grabs.

Not my thinking but keep up the good work!!!

The fingers are trained intensly at the latter stages of the system, to fascilitate the tiger elements as well as of course for the Biu Jee aspects including vital point strikes.

In my lineage Bil Jee has nothing to do with training the fingers and vital point strikes. Maybe Yip Man invented a whole new system.

There are also Crane type strikes and blocks with the hand as well. We also have leopard, phoenix and Dragon fist strikes.

There are no animal blocks in my lineage. Maybe if cranes and snakes should fight humans. Tigers and leopards only bite and maul.....how strong are your teeth??

What do animal elements do for Wing Chun? They bring in much needed richness and further dimensions. This is releveant in view of the fact that most Wing Chun taught nowadays is rather limited in dimensions and essence.

Animal elements do nothing for Wing Chun and thats why we don't have them. Get a grip!!.......with your tiger claws!! lol

Monkey

[Graham H]

Interesting comment You don't know what's happening in the Martial Centre of China (well it was in the days of Leung Jan) yet you rubbish the thought of something different than your own learning?

Well, there are animals represented in Ip Man - Lee Shing - Joseph Man teachings and if you have learnt even the basic language of certain moves you will again see evidence of this 'animal influence' in what you do too.



You're opinion here is a bit 'screwed' to be honest with you. As far as my own research goes, all the traditional elements were present in Ip Mans earlier training in Wing Chun and he purposely removed them when he started teaching in HK, leaving only a trace in the names of certain techniques.

So, in retrospect, these are not 'added' they have always been there and Ip Man only removed them to differentiate WCK from the other schools at the time. To fit in the 'marketplace' that existed in that era.



You wouldn't be doing WCK or WSL any harm by doing so imho.

I'm not replying to that albeit I do HK Ving Tsun if it makes you feel better. No house pets in my kung fu!!!!

[Graham H]

Yes Joy, I don't do current "mainland" WCK either. Just good old Ip Man WCK with Lee Shing/Joe Mans personality stamped on it.

You don't do Ip Man Ving Tsun Spencer otherwise we would be on the same page!!!! WSL said that he teaches "EXACTLY" the same system as he was taught by Yip Man. If your stuff isn't in what I practice then Yip Man obviously didnt teach it to WSL and I would hazzard a guess thats it because it doesn't work!!!

Tiger

[LoneTiger108]

You don't do Ip Man Ving Tsun Spencer otherwise we would be on the same page!!!! WSL said that he teaches "EXACTLY" the same system as he was taught by Yip Man. If your stuff isn't in what I practice then Yip Man obviously didnt teach it to WSL and I would hazzard a guess thats it because it doesn't work!!!

Tiger

Nice try Graham/Tiger

What will really grab you is, yes, I do train Wing Chun from Ip Man, as Lee Shing was a direct student of him, and my Sifu a direct student of Lee Shing, and me etc etc! Lee Shing was even an earlier student than WSL but I know that doesn't mean much these days. And yes, Lee Shing was known for his own extensive research into WCK, learning from other Masters prior to meeting Ip Man. And yes, WSL knew and respected Lee Shing of course, but you wouldn't know this right?

WSL said many things, as did every other WCK Sifu who promoted their styles in the UK, including my own Kung Fu Uncle Sifu Goh! The 'Young Ones' led the way while my Sigung continued teaching and running restaurants.

Some would say it's better NOT to teach exactly how you were taught (especially WCK!) as it is a completely personal journey and your teaching will change depending on the student. This happened with ALL of Ip Mans students so to come here and make ridiculous claims about WSL or anyone else having the 'real' WCK from Ip Man is actually quite laughable!

You fight and argue with me for nothing but self promotion and it's all a little jaded now to be honest. Sorry for the bluntness but if what I trained didn't work I would have left WCK ages ago. Everyone's an individual and we just don't know eachothers stories, so let us just leave it at that eh...

[Vajramusti]

This one is for Joy:
What do you call the single leg practice??
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Single leg practice? Firstly I am not big on labesl but big on trying to do things correctly and well.

Perhaps you mean practices?? Quite a few. Not an exhaustive list but....

1. single leg standing

2. single leg with fook gerk, bong gerk, tan gerk

3.single leg blocking drills

4. single leg turning drills.

5. chi gerk

etc.

joy

[TenTigers]

hmmm..well,
Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok is Crane,
Yuen Kay San's WCK, from what a teacher who does that art is snake and crane,
Gulo WCK has animal named techniques, if I'm not mistaken,
Yip Man's movements are identical to snake and crane techniques found in many other Southern Siu-Lum systems..
and there's the Siu Lin Tao/Emie snake and crane and..

soooo..you don't have to call them snake or crane or anything...
or....you can call them anything you like.
it doesn't change anything, it doesn't make it more or less effective.

"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."



(I call it snake and crane, btw...;-p )

[TenTigers]

This one is for Joy:
What do you call the single leg practice??
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Single leg practice? Firstly I am not big on labesl but big on trying to do things correctly and well.

Perhaps you mean practices?? Quite a few. Not an exhaustive list but....

1. single leg standing

2. single leg with fook gerk, bong gerk, tan gerk

3.single leg blocking drills

4. single leg turning drills.

5. chi gerk

etc.

joy

I think he was lookin' for "Crane Stance," or "Gum Gai Duk Lop"

[Hardwork108]

I'm not concerned with other lineages outside Ip Man. Tried Foshan Wing Chun once upon a time.......rubbish!!

So that makes all Foshan Wing Chun, rubbish??

By the way, there are at least half a dozen Wing Chun lineages in Mainland China.

Not my thinking but keep up the good work!!!

Thank you I will.

In my lineage Bil Jee has nothing to do with training the fingers and vital point strikes.

And obviously you are not at all interested why another lineage from Mainland China, as the case may be, trains the fingers, uses claw techniques and other animal aspects, as part of its curriculum?

Maybe Yip Man invented a whole new system.

I am sure that you are aware that there are people wondering wether Yip Man taught the complete system, or everything that he was exposed to, in his early years.

There are no animal blocks in my lineage. Maybe if cranes and snakes should fight humans.

Well, I will tell you that usually unarmed combat between snakes and humans, turn out pretty bad for the humans...

As for the cranes, you may be surprised by the power they can generate from their fragile looking bodies...

Tigers and leopards only bite and maul.....how strong are your teeth??

Tiger and Leopard TCMA methodologies are not about biting. Sometimes the "kung fu" people in this forum surprise me with their "knowledge"....

Let me give you a hint, all the animals mentioned so far have a certain "way" about them that humans do not have. That is, they can only attain it after a relatively long term training, with KNOWLEDGABLE sifu. This means that most people who claim to train kung fu - even the animal styles - will have no clue as to what I am talking about.

Animal elements do nothing for Wing Chun and thats why we don't have them.

"We"??? So, now you represent the whole of the Wing Chun family and lineages on the planet? LOL!

Has it not occured to you that you may be missing fundamental aspects from your kung fu practice? Perhaps you should think about it, a little?

Get a grip!!.......with your tiger claws!! lol

You would NOT want me to get a grip on you with my claws... BELIEVE ME!

Monkey

Wow, that is the first time that I have seen sign their post, with the word "monkey".

You don't seem to have high opinion of yourself, Do you?

[GlennR]

You didn't even answer my question



And you didnt answer mine

[LoneTiger108]

And you didn't answer mine (questions)

Reason being I had already 'given' you some answers and thought it would be covered as the thread moves forward...

Why is it great??

"It's great to see animals represented in Wing Chun, as I feel that it helps us connect more to our Traditional roots in Shaolin."

What makes you think WC has roots in Shaolin?

Because it DOES according to the verbal traditions of my own Sifu.

And how does this help WC as an effective self defense system?

When we engage animal characteristics into our kung fu, it isn't just about this hand becomes a claw and this foot becomes a hidden tiger, it's also because we adopt the strategies of the animal which has already been studied in combat through early Shaolin study.

Having a snake strategy, for example, is great to protect someone else (like a bodyguard) because you will stand your ground and not be distracted, advancing and retreating back to your 'nest' quicker than the eye can see. Attacking the nervous system accurately so no follow through (ie. wrestling) is required, especially against group attacks. Expanding yourself to seem larger than you are to absorb the attack. All this stuff, and more, is related to the snake.

Wouldn't it be "great" to try it out against other stlyes and situations than live in yesteryear???

Yes and no.

I feel that the WCK community would fair better if they exchanged within themselves first because it's very obvious from this forum and other research I have done that everyone is not on the same songsheet! Then we can gradually build programs that train the best of our fighters to go out into the MMA arena 'fully euipped' with the WCK toolbox (to coin an old TN phrase!) so the fighting that is projected and seen is WCK through and through.

That sort of skill level IS acheivable, but it all depends on whether people can work together, like around the World! And personally I think that will never happen unfortunately for the wannabe MMA fighters who leave WCK for better training

[LoneTiger108]

Gulo WCK has animal named techniques, if I'm not mistaken

Yes it does, according to what I have researched. And that's a great example of the language being so important. We have 'Fook Fu' Hidden Tiger footwork that is represented in Chum Kiu too, so it isn't just the Kulo 12/22/40 point methods that uses these terms. They're present in all good Ip Man WCK imho.

Single leg practice? Firstly I am not big on labesl but big on trying to do things correctly and well.

Perhaps you mean practices?? Quite a few. Not an exhaustive list but....

1. single leg standing

2. single leg with fook gerk, bong gerk, tan gerk

3.single leg blocking drills

4. single leg turning drills.

5. chi gerk

etc.

joy

Thanks for the list Joy, but if I may I will use just no. 1 as my example.

What is the Chinese term for single leg standing practice?

Coming from the Jun Mo school, this was called 'Dook Long Jong Lin' Single Dragon Fundamental Practice, and it is practised throughout the system from wooden man to pole, or in fact anytime you stand on one leg!

Why is it related to the Dragon?? Maybe we should ask the Red Boat people because it is intinsically linked to Opera performance.

FWIW The Ip Man pic I posted IS one of the many Wooden Man Dook Long techniques...

[GlennR]

Yes and no.

I feel that the WCK community would fair better if they exchanged within themselves first because it's very obvious from this forum and other research I have done that everyone is not on the same songsheet! Then we can gradually build programs that train the best of our fighters to go out into the MMA arena 'fully euipped' with the WCK toolbox (to coin an old TN phrase!) so the fighting that is projected and seen is WCK through and through.

That sort of skill level IS acheivable, but it all depends on whether people can work together, like around the World! And personally I think that will never happen unfortunately for the wannabe MMA fighters who leave WCK for better training [/QUOTE]

Ok, got no problems in regards to your animal connection. Not my thing but if thats your thing full power to you

But youre wrong about the WC exchange program to help WC in the world of MMA
While there's merit in cross training/ sparring with other WC, youll never achieve high results unless you mix it up with other styles.... especially the current MMA guys.
GlennR

[Graham H]

You would NOT want me to get a grip on you with my claws... BELIEVE ME!

I'm not in the habit of letting men touch me but if you are ever in my area come on over. I have some nail clippers!!!


GH

[Graham H]

...................I don't believe you!!!