Internal martial arts: a fiction?

[Scott R. Brown]

The ones towards the backend are all well known Aikido and Aki-jutsu tricks.

They take a bit more than a basic understanding of biomechanics to accomplish, but are still relatively easy to learn and perform once one does understand the biomechanics of the moves.

The moves would not work very well in a dynamic circumstance against a knowledgeable opponent who is trying to hurt you!

However the principles behind the movements may be applied in some dynamic situations against some unknowledgeable opponents.

[Black41]

First have him demonstrate it against trained opponents who are NOT his students AND can move AND can hit back!

But, if you insist, look at the way the guy in the back is standing and ask yourself if it is even close to a stable stance? Not to mention his poor acting.

I didn't see the youtube video because it's blocked in China, but the kung fu master I train under in China can demonstrate this internal power effectively in live action. I've experienced and it is very powerful and new students that have never trained with him before experienced it. You are welcome to come train with my kung fu master in Yantai, Shandong China. So far, his way of explaining things have been the only clarity I've found on this mysterious internal power. If you have any sources that explain it well, I'd like to hear about.

Here's a site you can check out: www.martial-one.com

Basically the way I perceive it is this energy is called "intelligent energy fields" or information. Using the mind to guide energy/chi sends more information, blood and oxygen to the area of intention which is then expressed on the mechanical plane of physical action.

Einstein said, "The field is the sole governing agency of the particle". Thus, it's energy first then matter or the mechanics second.

[Scott R. Brown]

I would love to come to China to train! See you as soon as I win the Lottery!

Concerning your internal energy:

If it is truly internal energy, and I have gone on the record here stating I would actually be happy if it is found to be true, he should be able to obtain the same results in various dynamic circumstances, including when off balance and not centered in his weight. The results should be the same or similar no matter where he strikes his opponent, and as effective whether he strikes with his fist, palm or finger!

And no offense meant to you, but I have known a quite a few people who are impressed with demonstrations of internal energy, but know very little to nothing about how the same feats are accomplished and explained using biomechanics!

If biomechanics are not a factor, results should also be the same standing on one foot, falling backwards and sitting on the floor or chair in the normal positions, NOT some special position that no one would use.

[SimonM]

I do so love it when people misinterpret physics to lend a veneer of scientism to their mysticism.

[Scott R. Brown]

One thing to remember is that just because YOU cannot explain something using biomechanics does not mean it cannot be explained using biomechanics!

[YiQuanOne]

I would love to come to China to train! See you as soon as I win the Lottery!

Concerning your internal energy:

If it is truly internal energy, and I have gone on the record here stating I would actually be happy if it is found to be true, he should be able to obtain the same results in various dynamic circumstances, including when off balance and not centered in his weight. The results should be the same or similar no matter where he strikes his opponent, and as effective whether he strikes with his fist, palm or finger!

And no offense meant to you, but I have known a quite a few people who are impressed with demonstrations of internal energy, but know very little to nothing about how the same feats are accomplished and explained using biomechanics!

If biomechanics are not a factor, results should also be the same standing on one foot, falling backwards and sitting on the floor or chair in the normal positions, NOT some special position that no one would use.

I don't think of internal as voodoo spells, maybe some people can impart some kind of frequency transfer (iron palm)ect, but I still think you need to be centered and balanced always to generate it.

You need a point of contact at ground, a transfer path, and a point of contact at application point.

I would say that internal is more along the line of being able to change the application path using the mind not muscle.


Now if people are throwing energy balls, they must still collect the energy from the connection between the earth and heaven and can transfer some of it , I guess that is how lightning is kind of produced. I have not met anyone yet that could do that.

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't think of internal as voodoo spells, maybe some people can impart some kind of frequency transfer (iron palm)ect, but I still think you need to be centered and balanced always to generate it.

You need a point of contact at ground, a transfer path, and a point of contact at application point.

Yes, you need a centered stance and point of contact with the ground because the force is generated from a push off the ground with your feet, thus it is biomechanics and NOT Qi.

If it were Qi it should be free from any biomechanics in order to accomplish its purpose, but it REQUIRES a firm, centered stance, JUST as is required for proper biomechanical performance.

[YiQuanOne]

Yes, you need a centered stance and point of contact with the ground because the force is generated from a push off the ground with your feet, thus it is biomechanics and NOT Qi.

If it were Qi it should be free from any biomechanics in order to accomplish its purpose, but it REQUIRES a firm, centered stance, JUST as is required for proper biomechanical performance.

Yes, but with internal it is not a muscle push, It can be a push off the ground and be transferred through the structure if it is maintained, kind of like the ball transfer model. But the mind can lead the path without a muscle surge, or the mind can transfer along a different path than physical point to point, but the point of contact is still the point of influence on opponent.

I really can't explain why it works, because there is no muscle action that happens, but when you try to do the same thing using the muscles it does not work. I just know it works, I don't know what is making it work, I just know how to do make it work. So it does not work without using the mind first to follow what ever path you want that somehow leads energy to the contact point.

[taai gihk yahn]

Yes, but with internal it is not a muscle push, It can be a push off the ground and be transferred through the structure if it is maintained, kind of like the ball transfer model. But the mind can lead the path without a muscle surge, or the mind can transfer along a different path than physical point to point, but the point of contact is still the point of influence on opponent.

I really can't explain why it works, because there is no muscle action that happens, but when you try to do the same thing using the muscles it does not work. I just know it works, I don't know what is making it work, I just know how to do make it work. So it does not work without using the mind first to follow what ever path you want that somehow leads energy to the contact point.

I am very sorry to say, but you are delusional; you cannot, I repeat, CANNOT have movement without muscle's contracting; somewhere, I don't know where, you internal bozos got the idea that when you use "internal", you are not using muscle power at all; sorry, but this is IMPOSSIBLE; let me TRY to hammer some sense into your head: when you move, muscles fire; when you stand up in gravity, MUSCLES FIRES; plain and simple; end of story; the hogwash about using 'internal" without using muscles is nothing more than a gross misconception;

in fact, you yourself admit that you can't explain how it works, yet you know there is no muscle action - well, if you can't explain it, how do you know there is no muscle action? really, it's just ridiculous to make statements like this;

what you are experiencing when you do things "internally", is a degree of muscle firing that is coordinated in a way that you feel it is "effortless" - this involves efficient muscle firing in terms of timing, along the entire length of the kinetic chain - which is why you need to have proper structural alingment - otherwise, the muscles "fight" the connective tissue structure, and that's why you "feel" them more; that, or you are actually generating agonist / antagonist con-contraction, where you end up fighting your own movement, which happens when you don't have good alingment / timing / coordination of breath, etc.

once and for all, anytime you move, you fire muscles; if you want proof, go hook your quads, glutes, lower traps and tricpes up to an EMG and do your internal schtick - I GUARANTEE that you will get muscle contraction registering on the read-out;

[YiQuanOne]

I am very sorry to say, but you are delusional; you cannot, I repeat, CANNOT have movement without muscle's contracting; somewhere, I don't know where, you internal bozos got the idea that when you use "internal", you are not using muscle power at all; sorry, but this is IMPOSSIBLE; let me TRY to hammer some sense into your head: when you move, muscles fire; when you stand up in gravity, MUSCLES FIRES; plain and simple; end of story; the hogwash about using 'internal" without using muscles is nothing more than a gross misconception;

in fact, you yourself admit that you can't explain how it works, yet you know there is no muscle action - well, if you can't explain it, how do you know there is no muscle action? really, it's just ridiculous to make statements like this;

what you are experiencing when you do things "internally", is a degree of muscle firing that is coordinated in a way that you feel it is "effortless" - this involves efficient muscle firing in terms of timing, along the entire length of the kinetic chain - which is why you need to have proper structural alingment - otherwise, the muscles "fight" the connective tissue structure, and that's why you "feel" them more; that, or you are actually generating agonist / antagonist con-contraction, where you end up fighting your own movement, which happens when you don't have good alingment / timing / coordination of breath, etc.

once and for all, anytime you move, you fire muscles; if you want proof, go hook your quads, glutes, lower traps and tricpes up to an EMG and do your internal schtick - I GUARANTEE that you will get muscle contraction registering on the read-out;

Well, fine, if you say some muscle is firing, maybe, but I am not trying to fire muscles, and I am not fighting against my opponent and I am not getting tired from using muscles, so it must be very little muscle and a very efficient way of appling force!. But I still don't feel muscles firing.

Call it what you want, it is still "internal" generated using the mind, issued thru Qi, manifested at point of contact.

[Scott R. Brown]

Muscles, or rather the mind, can inhibit efficient energy transfer. All high caliber boxers understand this.

The body cannot move without using the muscles, but high caliber athletes learn how to use only the amount of energy/muscular force necessary to accomplish their purpose. Any other energy usage is a waste and may inhibit the action.

Every muscle has an antagonist, the biceps have the triceps for example. Efficient movement requires the relaxation of one group of muscles in order to not interfere with the other.

It is the difference between "trying" to do the movement, and "allowing" the technique to do its job without undue interference from the mind!

It is this "allowing" of the technique to work according to the natural principles of biomechanics that leads to its attribution to Qi, by those without the knowledge /understanding of biomechanics!

While the ancients did have a basic understanding of biomechanics, they understood that "x" action, produces a predictable and consistent "y" result, they did not always understand why this occurs. so, they hypothesized a mysterious force called Qi in order to explain unexplained phenomenon.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well, fine, if you say some muscle is firing, maybe, but I am not trying to fire muscles, and I am not fighting against my opponent and I am not getting tired from using muscles, so it must be very little muscle and a very efficient way of appling force!. But I still don't feel muscles firing.

Call it what you want, it is still "internal" generated using the mind, issued thru Qi, manifested at point of contact.

Exactly, I had the same experiences when I trained in Aikido, which I am still a big fan of, but the effortlessness is a consequence of the efficient use of muscles AND proper technique, which is biomechanics.

This "proper technique" execution includes proper timing of specific movements performed at specific times according to your opponent's position/structural alignment/center-of-balance/ biomechanics.

[YiQuanOne]

Muscles, or rather the mind, can inhibit efficient energy transfer. All high caliber boxers understand this.

The body cannot move without using the muscles, but high caliber athletes learn how to use only the amount of energy/muscular force necessary to accomplish their purpose. Any other energy usage is a waste and may inhibit the action.

Every muscle has an antagonist, the biceps have the triceps for example. Efficient movement requires the relaxation of one group of muscles in order to not interfere with the other.

It is the difference between "trying" to do the movement, and "allowing" the technique to do its job without undue interference from the mind!

It is this "allowing" of the technique to work according to the natural principles of biomechanics that leads to its attribution to Qi, by those without the knowledge /understanding of biomechanics!

While the ancients did have a basic understanding of biomechanics, they understood that "x" action, produces a predictable and consistent "y" result, they did not always understand why this occurs. so, they hypothesized a mysterious force called Qi in order to explain unexplained phenomenon.

So are you saying that executing a boxing punch is the same as the mind leading Qi?.

Because I have executed thousands of boxing punches and I did not use the mind to lead the Qi, and was very efficient. I would say if you arm has room to move before getting to the target, you are not going to need Qi, it is just external muscle contraction, trying to keep the muscles that restrict that movement relaxed.

I would say the Qi stuff comes more into play when no movement is available for execution.

[Scott R. Brown]

So are you saying that executing a boxing punch is the same as the mind leading Qi?.

Because I have executed thousands of boxing punches and I did not use the mind to lead the Qi, and was very efficient. I would say if you arm has room to move before getting to the target, you are not going to need Qi, it is just external muscle contraction, trying to keep the muscles that restrict that movement relaxed.

I would say the Qi stuff comes more into play when no movement is available for execution.

No movement, no punch, no power! Like I said, if you can perform a powerful punch off balance, on one foot, sitting down, with an open hand, one finger, using bad form, MAYBE you can attribute it to Qi, but even then it must follow the physical laws of biomechanics.

When you start from the presumption that Qi exists, even though there are no objective facts to support its existence (all the "facts" are subjective), you will re-interpret facts to fit your preconceived notion.

One must convince themselves that Qi exists through their own subjective experiences and against objective evidence. Just because you cannot explain why something occurs does not mean it cannot be explained by the laws of biomechanics, it merely means you do not have the experience to understand what is occurring!

There is a reason these things are not common knowledge, it is because they do not stand up to objective observation. If Qi gave one more power and effectiveness, do you not think modern and ancient armies would have utilized this wonderful power to their own benefit?

They did not because it is fantasy!

On the other hand, all phenomena attributed to Qi may be demonstrated using known physical laws.

[YiQuanOne]

No movement, no punch, no power! Like I said, if you can perform a powerful punch off balance, on one foot, sitting down, with an open hand, one finger, using bad form, MAYBE you can attribute it to Qi, but even then it must follow the physical laws of biomechanics.

When you start from the presumption that Qi exists, even though there are no objective facts to support its existence (all the "facts" are subjective), you will re-interpret facts to fit your preconceived notion.

One must convince themselves that Qi exists through their own subjective experiences and against objective evidence. Just because you cannot explain why something occurs does not mean it cannot be explained by the laws of biomechanics, it merely means you do not have the experience to understand what is occurring!

There is a reason these things are not common knowledge, it is because they do not stand up to objective observation. If Qi gave one more power and effectiveness, do you not think modern and ancient armies would have utilized this wonderful power to their own benefit?

They did not because it is fantasy!

On the other hand, all phenomena attributed to Qi may be demonstrated using known physical laws.

I did not say anything about powerful punch. You don't need powerful punch to do everything. You only need to apply enough force to imbalance opponent, once opponent off balance he cannot do much to you.

When you drive a car, you adjust the power for road, just the same when you are using your applications.

If drag race and no need to adjust for road, then yes most power win. Punching bag, or applying to person that does not respond or is off balance and cannot defend.

You need to create bridge to opponent, you want to use bridge but you don't want the opponent to be able to use same bridge.

When opponet cannot defend, then hit him anyway you want, external punch work fine.