How much Hop-Ga is in your Hung-Ga?

[jdhowland]

...Wong Yan Lum's father was Wong Ping? I thought he learned Lama from Sing Lung... What did he learn from his father?

As above: "no one can say." Sing Lung was Wong Yan Lum's only known teacher of repute. Anything else is speculation.

[jdhowland]

One thing is clear. As soulfist pointed out, Wong Kei-Ying learned from Wong Yan-Lum. Wong Kei-Ying was also a friend and associate of Wong Yan-Lum. Both retained membership in the Ten Tigers organization. This means to me that Wong Yan Lum had respect for Wong Kei-Ying and his prowess. Kei-Ying wasn't just another student, he was a respected comrade. He did not give up his school to teach Lama Kyuhn, he added to what he already had. It was all good stuff for its time.

[CLFNole]

Not that I have a dog in this fight but "learning" might be over thought as many sifu's exchange ideas & techniques between each other thus "learning" but I don't think anyone would consider Wong Kay Ying a student of Wong Yan Lum. I would venture to guess Wong Kay Ying influenced Wong Yan Lum as well. I think this is universal across syles - CLF, hung fut, jow gar, etc...

[PM]

i have been researching this subject for a long long time - the only sure think is that Hung Ga Kyun is definitelly influenced by Lama paai/Hap Ga/Baak Hok, but when and how, we do not know.

most people quickly assume Wong Yanlam and Wong Keying/Wong Feihung relationship and influence, but so far i have not seen a single reliable Chinese source having a proof. i persdonally think that the Ten Tigers of Gwongdung story is made up much lter by the novelists. Wong Yanlam is such a big name in the South that the bios of Wong Feihung would certainly devote a big part to that - and they do not (just his father Wong Keying and Lam Fuksing are usually mentioned as his teachers, plus the guy who supposedly taught him no shadow kick concept).

old Chinese sources have also no idea- some of them say that the long bridges were adopted by Ji Sin Sim Si after his 3 visits of Gwongdung; the other side of spectrum claims it was Lam Saiwing. one Chinese source even says that Wong Feihung has learned 5 Elements from Lam Fuksing (!) - yes, some of the sources say that one of Tit kiu Saam's Teachers was "Golden Hook"/Bearded Lei, ie. Sing Lung (thnx for Ross sifu for the assistance identifying this person).

in the Tiger and Crane books there is no word about Hap Ga, long bridges are atributed to Fat Ga Lo Hon Kyun (Fat Ga being other name of the so called Tibetan systems? Lo Hon Kyun being a name of the set?)

loads of Hung Kyun masters had some Hap Ga experience - just look at Dang Fong and his sets like Gau Duk Kyun/Gau Ji Lin Waan Kyun, Ho Laptin and Lau Sing Kyun, Lam Saiwing and Sap Ying kyun etc. etc.

Mok Gwailaan lineage has also long bridges in their curriculum, so i personally think that the long bridges were added by Wong Feihung (whenever he has learned them - Chines esources say he has adopted elements of Hap Ga), and later expanded by other masters, who did some Hap Ga here, come CLF there (my sigung told me that our leopard is indeed from CLF). Everything before Wong Feihung is just speculation. i personalyl think that Wong Honwing might have a big influence eg. on Lam Saiwing and othe masters from that place and era.

some other discussion elswhere:

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=904

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1045

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1397

looking forwad to hear more from you guys! research!

[TenTigers]

so..let's take this further.
What drills, training methods, theories, techniques and concepts from
Lama/Hop-Ga/Bak-Hok do you employ in your training?

Personally, I feel it would be wasteful to absorb techniques from such a rich, effective system as this, and only have a few technique that only resemble the art on the surface.
IMHO, there is a lot of wasted potential in Hung-Ga these days. The art has become a mere shadow of its former self.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so..let's take this further.
What drills, training methods, theories, techniques and concepts from
Lama/Hop-Ga/Bak-Hok do you employ in your training?

Personally, I feel it would be wasteful to absorb techniques from such a rich, effective system as this, and only have a few technique that only resemble the art on the surface.
IMHO, there is a lot of wasted potential in Hung-Ga these days. The art has become a mere shadow of its former self.

I agree that HG has become a "shadow" of what it used to be, but I am not sure that just because systems SHARE things that it meas THAT much ( though it does mean something).
I've seen a few different types of Lama/lionsroar and though they obviously share things the are also not "the same".

The one thing that they do share is that they start off "big" and end up "small" ( or long and short if you prefer).

[TenTigers]

agreed. What I should clarify is that knowing the techniques and knowing how to use them to their fullest potential are two different things.

[lkfmdc]

most people quickly assume Wong Yanlam and Wong Keying/Wong Feihung relationship and influence, but so far i have not seen a single reliable Chinese source having a proof.

Lam Jo knew about it, and talked about it a lot, heard that from YC Wong

i persdonally think that the Ten Tigers of Gwongdung story is made up

It certainly wasn't like the Shaw Bros movie and it wasn't really an "organization" but it certainly DID exist

There doesn't seem much controversy in saying well established teacers of the same period influeenced eachother

I had a lot of friends from local NYC traditions that I picked stuff up from (Ying Jow Pai, Chat Sing Tong Long, Bak mei, Siu Lam, etc)

old Chinese sources have also no idea- some of them say that the long bridges were adopted by Ji Sin Sim Si after his 3 visits of Gwongdung; the other side of spectrum claims it was Lam Saiwing. one Chinese source even says that Wong Feihung has learned 5 Elements from Lam Fuksing (!) -

By the time anyone even remotely literate began to care about stuff like this, the true story was long gone and lost

Having done Hung from a Dang Fong lineage and "village" hung from a specifically NON WFH lineage, no doubt the changes came from around the WKY / WFH period

See below for more

yes, some of the sources say that one of Tit kiu Saam's Teachers was "Golden Hook"/Bearded Lei, ie. Sing Lung (thnx for Ross sifu for the assistance identifying this person).

I do believe that Sing Lung was ONE of TKS's teachers. Thus some of the "long bridge" in Hung came from here

Other came from Wong Yan Lam

Other probably came from northern systems, from CLF and stuff that the Wong family had access to

in the Tiger and Crane books there is no word about Hap Ga, long bridges are atributed to Fat Ga Lo Hon Kyun (Fat Ga being other name of the so called Tibetan systems? Lo Hon Kyun being a name of the set?)

politics (and lack of details)

edit: "Faht Ga" means "Buddhist system" and as far as I have seen ,never meant ONE specific system...

Three sequences in Fu Hok come almost move for move from "Siu Lo Han" so maybe you are correct

[sanjuro_ronin]

agreed. What I should clarify is that knowing the techniques and knowing how to use them to their fullest potential are two different things.

Pressure testing is, as always, the key of taking knowing into doing.
There isn't just enough done it seems.
I don't mean competition or that, no ( though that would be the easiest way), I mean taking your HK and using it in a full contact "no rules" environment to see what works and what doesn't ( for you) and why.

[lkfmdc]

Pressure testing is, as always, the key of taking knowing into doing.

not WHAT you do

it is HOW you do it

[PM]

Ross sifu, thnx a lot, i am saving the info to my Hap Ga & Hung Kyun file

stupid me, i did not ask my sigung (Lam Jou) about it, but next time i will!

[once ronin]

Who these people were can be traced back to the poems in Loy Batt Moon.

Gum Gong gee and Hung ga's kiu sao also telles you who these guys are.

Dang Gum Toe of Guangzhou was a Hung ga teacher, his son leanred his Hung Ga but Dang Gum Toe also was fortunate to have his son learn Hop Ga.

Today Dang Jan Kwong promotes Hop Ga not so much Hung Ga.

Here is talks about the Gum Gong gee hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQkO2...0EAD7272E425CA

[Violent Designs]

glad to see the the southern forum stabilize at least.

TenTigers I have some questions regarding Hung Kuen but I figured best if I just send you a PM or something as it is not that complex, if you have the time to spare.

cheers

[David Jamieson]

I believe the answer is zero.

At least for me. I realized the distinct lack of that flavour when I started learning another style of black tiger. It was decidedly more clf and hop gar in flavour.

[TenTigers]

glad to see the the southern forum stabilize at least.

TenTigers I have some questions regarding Hung Kuen but I figured best if I just send you a PM or something as it is not that complex, if you have the time to spare.

cheers

lookin forward to it