That Wiccai Witch Guy

[Sam Wiley]

Phoenix,
Could you tell us some more about the animal forms you designed? I am curious about the wolverine form you mentioned especially. (At least I think you were the one.)

Did you stick strictly to Hung Gar's principles when designing them, or did you delve into other areas? If so, may I ask your reasons?

Did you design the forms more to explore the spirit of the animal or to mimic its movements?

May I ask the structure of the forms? Are they "long" forms based on the animal or a few specific movements repeated?

Could you give us a comparison between the forms you created and animals styles similar to them that we may be more familiar with, including the differences?

[wushu chik]

Ralek....
The reason why everyone thinks that you are the girls on the forum is because you are a B I T C H!!! That's the ONLY logical explination I can come up with.

~Wen~

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Sam, I would like to address your questions.

I will get to the wolverine a bit later. I’ll start with your question on weather or not I stuck to Hung Gar’s principles when designing form or if I delved into other areas. To be blunt, I delved into other areas. As mentioned, I was initiated as a Tibetan Buddhist, but I had trouble with their ‘man in a state of nature’ theory. They believe that all are inherently pure, white light – all goodness. I disagree. I choose to believe we are a collage of energies of light, dark, hard, soft, positive and negative – among others. The balance of these energies is the focus – not on weather or not dark means bad or evil. They just are. I do not think in terms of evil and bad when I think of the negative energies within me. Now, in Hung gar I was never taught about my connections to animals and nature in this way. Now, assuming you accept the fact that we all have positive and negative energy flowing through us, and then it is vital we recognize the energies in the traits of animals as well as ourselves. I choose to attempt to make this connection through magic and ritual. Now having said that, a lot of Wiccans do not like what I do and they describe shape shifting differently than I do. When someone tells me they shape shift with the raven in their dreams, I agree, but I do not take it as seriously as what I do (perhaps a fault of mine because it seemed serious to them – I guess I would hope they try to physicalize it and they don’t). This may sound egocentric but in terms of the animal/cerebral connection, I attempt to look through the eyes of the raven, to physically appear as the raven and ultimately BE the raven.

This brings me to the wolverine question you had. Fear. Fear. I have been working with the wolverine (female) for a while now. She is new to my toolbox. If I am faced with the most frightening situation, I would call on her in an instant – this level of calling would be to deliver death to an intruder – an intruder who I fear is attempting to kill me. Wolverines are fierce. They will guard their young like no other and will, if necessary, take on the largest of mammals. They will urinate on the uneaten spoils – just so you cannot have any. They are, in my opinion worthy of research and worthy of connecting with for magic and self defense. I spoke about the removal of ears and flesh – she will intend to do that. She wills it to be done. I focus a lot of my training on will and intent and the wolverine will tear your face off with her teeth, claws and shear will power, if threatened enough. I attempt to be like that in some of my training. She helps me look at the negative energies I have within me and face them.

Yes I design forms to express both the spirit and to mimic, as best I can, so I can tap into the shen, spirit or instincts of the animal. You need to look in order to act. I believe that to be true and based on my experience mimicking an animal is vital to tapping into the core of this connection we have – this reptilian part of ourselves that all of us have. Having said that, it is very difficult to do this when doing structured form. The form is vital to teach and learn the animal movements, certain reactions and to feel the connection. But I also believe to be effective in high ritual magic and self defense, the form must dissolve and become empty of thought and substance to establish a pure connection with the animals; therefore being effective. Believe me, I understand I have only begun this journey, and I can only hope I can some day be as proficient with it as other former shamans and shape shifters. I have had a few moments when I was asked to move as the cat and it was very difficult for me to drop the form and simply BE cat. I am getting better with it. It is a spontaneous connection usually triggered through emotions like fear, anger, rage etc.

I used to use LCD and other drugs to assist in the ‘tap in’. I no longer use them for legal and parental reasons, but I also believe it has its place in this bridge to the core I mentioned. I am not your average Wiccan and I see Wicca a little bit differently than some. I choose to attempt the bridging through the research and practical workings others have attempted in the past. Some Wiccans also think I am a flake because I study some of Crowley’s work. I do not care to stop on my path and gaze into the eyes of their confusion. I take what works for me and respect others see things differently. That is pretty much me in a nutshell. They can ‘shape shift’ with a poem and I will go shape shift with posture, hand symbology and movement. It works for me.

Are the forms long? I wish we could all just BE the animals and never even have to learn the structure form teaches. But, I know it has its place to establish the reactionary results we want in self-defense, so I do them. (I am like a kid in a candy store – I want more of the emptiness and freedom of thoughtlessness in animal shape shifting) The forms can go as high as 300 moves and as little as 50.

Your last point about animal comparisons. Cat may look similar to wolverine. The symbologies of the claws are very close, but the posture of the wolverine is hunched more for me and rides closer to the earth. The look is more sinister for the wolverine and the intent is more lethal – on an immediate level. Assuming the situation is grave, wolverine will attempt to kill as quickly and ruthlessly as possible and be very dark and dirty doing so. The raven, crow and owl may look similar in hand symbology to the crane, but again they have very different attributes and intentions. I suppose this is where application is similar, but the intent and execution are different in the goal to be achieved. If I need to snap the neck hard enough for a knock out, then perhaps raven, snake and butterfly will be used. If the neck snap requires a break to cause death, then owl, wolverine, cat, scorpion etc will be used as their attributes are more conducive to obtaining the desired intent.

I think all animal systems are or can be similar to what I am trying to do. Mantis, white crane, monkey, etc are animals and I believe schools should be teaching us that we are connected to them more than just in the application of form. We should be instructed to eventually drop the forms and become the animals through specific exercises and rituals that promote it. We have a direct, scientific connection to them and this should be further researched in MA for its effectiveness. A mantis practitioner may only study form and never really get to the connection I attempt to, and they may defeat me. What I do does not indicate certain victory over the mantis practitioner, it promotes a healthy way of life, regardless of how ‘deadly’ I become. It promotes freedom to be connected with animals in a way that is healthy and magical, for me as a Wiccan.

I hope this has helped clarify your questions. I need some sleep. Chow.

Phoenix

[Yung Apprentice]

HHHHHMMM. O.k. You get props for doing your own thing.As far as the jumping the broom statement, that was actually a ritual used by slaves to signify their marriage. It was used by slaves because they were not able to marry legally, and the ceremonies didn't draw a lot of attention by their "slaveholders". N E who, ya know for someone who is peaceful and in touch with nature, you talk a lot about gory things.

[scotty1]

Ralek makes me laugh.

This is a good thread, I can feel the love in this room.

I'm going to get some soup and read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

Phoenix, more power to ya.

[Repulsive Monkey]

...were considered to be used as an auto-erotic drug dispensing aid, where a positional stance once taken naked to and actions incurred to facilitate absorbtion of the bark of the branch which was said to contain hallucinogenic properties. This act was used for shamainc reasons and hence, due to being tripped out, is where the idea of flying on broomsticks really came from. Levitational acts and flying wiht the stick in reality was never the issue.

[Sam Wiley]

In other words, the girls smeared the stick with weak but psychoactive contact poison and went to town with it, if you get my drift. The drugs made it feel like they were flying (and probably they hallucinated it as well). Supposedly they also had a mock horse set up, with a saddle with and extra long saddle horn. The descriptions I've read remind me of the suspended barrels they use to teach people how to ride broncos. Nowadays witches ("****s" in the common parlance) invest a bit of dough in a Sybian saddle, attach a phallic appendage, and give the electric controls to their boyfriends.

Anyway, I just want to thank you, Phoenix, for your explanations. It sounds to me like you have put some serious thought into what you are doing. I have been experimenting with animal forms myself lately. While I know a few animal palm changes for Bagua, I have never explored them until lately. Also, I felt that the few I knew were not really enough to exlore the whole animal idea. A friend of mine sent me a video tape a few years ago of George Xu teaching the 10 animal 6 harmony style, which I never watched, and so I dug that out a couple of days ago to check out some more animal based stuff. His bear form is lumbering, but not slow, just like a bear. His monkey form is lively and animated. Actually, all of the ones I have looked at so far really resemble the spirit more than the animal. The bear movements, fo instance, do not look like a bear, but rather express the spirit of the bear.

Anyway, have you designed any animal specific training methods besides forms? Have you designed any two man sets to explore the applications, or how one animal might act when confronted with another? Have you assigned any specific breathing patterns to the animals? Have you designed animal posture qigongs to go with them? Do the different animals utilize different power generation methods Can you give us examples of any of these things?

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Sam. You asked me the following:

Anyway, have you designed any animal specific training methods besides forms? Have you designed any two man sets to explore the applications, or how one animal might act when confronted with another? Have you assigned any specific breathing patterns to the animals? Have you designed animal posture qigongs to go with them? Do the different animals utilize different power generation methods Can you give us examples of any of these things? [/B][/QUOTE]

As far as specific training methods, I would have to say that I have not really developed methods in the way you have asked. I will, for example, go out into the woods for a night, start a fire, open a ritual circle, open my chakras and go through some hand symbology and slow moving meditation and allow it to build. I may have a partner beat a drum to assist and I will focus on the owl and only the owl all night. I attempt to spontaneously engage with the spirit of the owl and for moments of time, it happens. I will find myself connecting and moving - learning what the owl is offering me in spirit. Sometimes it may 'look' silly and when I stop and think, "hey that looks silly", I have lost the connection and must start over. This has not been easy for me; to develop my own animals and to work with them in this way. Noone has ever taught me these things and I have yet to find anyone around where I live who does. The training can be tough in this self-motivated respect.

As for two man sets - again, perhaps I need to further penetrate this area for the application in terms of teaching. What I will do, however, is ask my partner to engage with me and as I 'find' something new, I slow it down, back up and go over it to see if it would have applied. A lot of times I will spar with my observer which is me. I will see an attacker coming in on me and I will engage that observer. My brother in law, whom I have taught for a couple of years now will spar with me and we work on things I pick up in sessions with my animals. The same applies for him. We work on things he discovers. I find that when you discover certain things yourself your better able to apply them in combat. It comes out more natural. My brother has years of training in dance, skating and art. He is able to move and mimic a lot of animals. More than myself and I have 8 or 9 years on him in MA. The only reason I tend to dominate him in sparring is because he does not allow his fear to be a trigger for him. He is getting much better as we move along. He is learning about engaging energy. To be quite honest, I have only been training others in Wiccai for a couple of years. I kept it personal, so it is still in its infancy in terms of 'exploring the possibilities' with active partners. I have only actively worked from a Wiccai perspective with a small number of individuals. I normally show five animals to people and keep Wiccai personal as it is still so young.

Specific breathing patterns? Yes, a little - to get the breath down back where it belongs, but ultimately, No. I practice asan postures with all my animals (Crowley influence here) and focus on my connection to the earth in moving meditative breathing - but I am not rigid in things like microcosmic orbital or exercises like the 8 pieces of brocade. Personally, I think the use of music or the beats of the drum are better triggers. If I am feeling intense and very aggressive in a dark way, I will grab my Walkman and plug in a group like Metallica and engage my animals in non-form. It looks pretty freaky in the park when you’re tapped in and grunting, snorting and jumping around like a maniac. I am sometimes asked about my use of music and it is a training aid for me. Ritual music is also a trigger. The grunts and sounds I just mentioned are also key. I think Bruce Lee was onto something when he made all kinds of weird, abnormal sounds; and it was not just theatrics for him - it was his connection to that type of emptiness. So, I focus on the things that establish a connection - the breathing automatically falls into place.

Power generation methods. Well, I use the principles of force in terms of absorb, repel, hard, soft, yield, penetrate etc., but again how do I, or you, 'see' energy? In magic I raise what we call 'the cone of power'. This power generates form the earth and moves through my chakras. I see it as a spiral of deep blue, penetrating light. When I cast my circle, I use no tools in Wiccai - only my animals and I 'scorch' the earth where I will be working. I use the same cone of power to send healing energy out - the same way a Buddhist would send out positive white light. I would also use it in this manner.

Now, on the darker side of energy. If I need to strike you in the eye and not cause permanent damage, I will perhaps use the tongue of my snake and I will align my intentions with the technique. If the situation were immediate and grave, I would then require a full penetration of the eye. This strike may look exactly the same as the snake, but the finger sinking in would be that of my scorpion, sending forth a piercing destructive energy back into the eye via my stinger. This piercing would be in the form of this light, spiraling through the eye and beyond the socket and into the brain. I would visualize this being done to attempt the desired will and intent of causing serious bodily harm - to penetrate the eye with the stinger and poison the brain with venom, ultimately causing serious damage. Sounds a bit weird to some and over the top to others, but again, I look at self-defense a bit differently than some and I see the world a bit differently than most. I am not some lunatic bent on hurting others. I have not been in a fight for several years and it is my goal to end my days without doing any of this to anyone. I do believe to be effective in magic, ritual and self-defense, you need to fully understand and explore all the possibilities with positive and negative energy. Creative forces and destructive forces. Obviously my replies could be much longer, more detailed and offer more examples, but time is limited and the use of this forum is limited.

Time to get off to work.

Phoenix

[Sam Wiley]

Oh, a more shamanic approach. I like that. is the music you experiment with more trance-inducing or more emotionally stimulating? The Metallica sounds a little more emotionally stimulating, but on ...And Justice for All some of the songs were quite long and repetitious. I used to practice to that tape, and songs like The Shortest Straw, which was quite long served as a backdrop to qigong sessions. For forms, I prefer to listen to Ozzy or Black Sabbath. I prefer to stir emotions during forms practice, which works well, oddly, with the no mind state. Nowadays, for qigong, I either listen to Tool, or else turn on my white noise machine and listen to thunderstorms or waves crashing. It's quite nice. Have you tried exploring the animals with sound effects such as those in the background? In some Satanic ceremonies things like this are done to enhance the mood and atmosphere. Running water, thunder, low volume hums, crackling of electricity, etc. are some of the things we use to help acheive the altered state. Pearl Jam has a couple of really hypnotic songs, Aye Davanita and one on their first album that I can't remember the name to. Both are kind of tribal-sounding. Have you ever practiced any of the more "lighthearted" animals, like the monkey for an example, to something like that circus song, Entrance of the Gladiators, or something like that?

Have you experimented with manufacturing masks of each animal to wear during practice, to better infuse the personality of the animal into your own? Sometimes, wearing a mask helps with dissolution of the ego, and allows you to tap into areas of your conciousness that normally would not manifest.

Have you ever experimented with any of the energy gathering and cultivation techniques of the Temple of the Vampire? Some of their techniques are the same as normal qigong, but they also delve into areas most dare not go. I have sometimes combined what I learned from my practice from what I have picked up from their Vampire Bible, like combining visualization, energy gathering, and tortoise or prenatal breathing techniques from qigong, which pack the gathered qi into the dantien. I've had some startling experiences after I started experimenting with them.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

I would have to say the music is more for emmotion. The Metallica, Black Sabbath and Ozzy you listen to are on my list of 'go to' titles if I am feeling agressive. I am a big fan of hard music mixed with the headphones and animals. Some of my best workouts are with them. I would agree with the 'no mind state' you mentioned. Some people say my tapes and use of drums, weather etc are crutches but I see them as keys. I try not to depend on them, but they work.

As far as a real trance. I have only tapped into deep trance on a deep level using primitive, raw ceremonial music as well as drugs. Since I no longer use the drugs I once did, the music can serve its purpose. I also tap into this trance without these tools, its just a lot harder for me. I am attempting to find ways to rid myself of these methods of assistance - but it is hard. One thing I found that works well is to get off my butt and go out in severe weather to do some work. This is very usefull.

As far as working with monkey, no. I have not explored him yet. My injuries have shelved him for now. I will, but for now I have been trying to focus on the main Hung Gar animals (but with the 'raw' twist we are discussing) as well as scorpion, wolverine, stag, goat and owl. The later five have become important to me. The owl found me a while back. I was reflecting on owl and thinking about conducting research on its fighting abilities and how this might connect to my aggressive side. Well, I had a few powerful dreams and then I was driving my car and a white owl swooped down in front of my car, flew ahead of me for about 100 yards and then turned and flew off. You have to understand - it is very rare to see an owl in this area. Well, in conjunction with the dreams, I decided to take this relationship further and the next night I went to the same spot and began doing owl symbology with claws and movement (listening to Metallica on 10) Well, I had this urge to turn and do a rising block, so I did. Out of nowhere this huge white owl was diving in on me, claws out and glaring down on me! Well, to be blunt - I freaked out. I was in shock and it was the first time I became a REAL believer in what I was doing. Then the next night, I went to see a friend whom I had not seen in months. He, again out of nowhere, asked if I like owls! I started to laugh like a nut case and he asked what my problem was. I said, 'nothing, bro, forget it, why you ask?" Well, he gets up and returns with a mirror etching he did of this owl for me. He said, "I thought you might like this". I tell you, Sam! I do not take symbology and messages lightly, so now I train with the owl and 'she' is one of my familiars. She is also one mean nasty S.O.B if she has to be and fun to work with. She and the dragon taught me about ear removal and the removal of flesh. I never had this level of intent in my training prior to this. I know I talk a lot about the darker side of MA, but I study that side hard so I can bring it into better balance with my softer side.

Temple of the Vampire? No. But I am sure I have probably delved into the areas they do. I am not at all afraid of what I may see about myself that I have not already seen. My fears are not based in what may be there. My fears are more dangerous than that - I know what is there. Because of my past experiences, I have learned that fear has been my most dangerous trigger; trigger to the animal in me. I was always told not to be afraid - that fear would get me hurt. I completely dissagree, Sam. Fear has saved my life and it has also caused great harm to others when I lived on the streets. I have learned more form fear than any other emmotion and fear has been the strongest trigger to the raw, primordial, reptilian side for me. When I work with others that accept the energies we spoke of and are open to discovering who we are in our most raw connection to nature, I get to these issues to show them their true face. If they do not believe beyond the all good, white light theory, then I cannot help them see what they are blind to - in terms of my perception of reality. I try to respect their views may be different.

Ever see a guy who has had training, look so 'off technique' in a fight, yet destroy the opponent? Often the structured experiences we have fail us. I like form for foundational, practical reasons, but I also find it can be a hindrance if not dropped at the right time. Too many folks don't venture beyond the form because only the 'master' can take them there. I disagree. I challenge anyone I work with to grow with the form but at the same time, independently of it. To explore and ask questions. To experiment and challenge structures in a meaningful, heart felt way.
To eventually create their own based on personal experiences with them.

I would like to know more about your 'startling experiences', if you care to share them. I am interested in these types of experiences. I wish I had training partners like yourself to explore these things with. It takes time for practitioners to get to this level - not in terms of skill, but in terms of letting go of what they have learned and riding the wave into the unknown to tap into raw animal instincts and emmotions.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Forgot to mention, that yes, I have worked with masks. I work with a herne helmet and I have worked with the green man mask and I also have a staff with a goat skull on top I use for circle. I have quite a bit of symbolic triggers in my home from jewelry to masks and drums to candles and pentacles to a stag head on the wall. Others as well, but you get the point.

[diego]

im trying to visualize this,would you say if you looked at it from a western scientist perspect,Shapeshifting into the spirit,is like a ??? lets say selfinduced hallucination of affirmation!!...hallucinate meaning the rush when you coil your posture triggering the reptilian brain as they say,like when you guzzle to much alcohol,and the rush swamps you.....
i think i have a idea wear your coming from, everyone does it in martial arts,regardless--how many of you thought you were bruce lee,even ralek does it when he jacks to gracie vids,pictureing he's royce,taking all contendors in cumbat....HAD TO BE DONE,BUT besides the ralek joke i am serious.."" if im right-shapeshifting with the animal spirit is very much a powerfull affirmation, then ralek does it to if he ever gets around to training,he will through his excitement visualize he could become helio,or rorion,and that will form a greater spirit in his shell-physical,wich his weak mind from a concurrent lame existence could never applied....""
PAYCE...

[diego]

Respect's.

[Ray Pina]

I understand this channeling human energy, spirit or intention, but, I myself, am trying to focus on the human potential, I believe it, stemming from our minds, is even more powerful but few try to expand it. Returning to the reptilian impulse to me, seems like down grading.

I have found that as I turned to Internal, I have had better success looking at things as an intelligent man, checking things out from a scientific point of view.

I belive everything you are saying ... if you believe in it. The mind is everything. BUT, I believe its focus can be put to other, maybe even better uses, without resorting to go a reptilian impulse.

Interesting topic though.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Good comments. Your scientific approach is not as far off with mine as you may think. This connection to the three phases of the mind or brain that I am looking into is very scientific. In terms of applied techniques, I am looking more into ground grappling from a strict scientific application point of view. How to manipulate positioning for the mount and guard. How to counter and attack certain flaws detected from the attaching energy encountered in this art.

Looking into the 'raw state of mind' is not regression. It is attempting to re-establish a lost link. In todays world many of us seek a quick fix and simply want to know how to get to the destination as quickly as possible, bypassing ancient, shamanistic techniques. This is not to say your techniques in terms of your internal training are any less real or scientific than mine. They are both valid. I am a traditionalist in terms of human connections to nature and I am also a modern thinker in terms of application of techniques. We need to adapt to new techniques and applications in order to continue the advancement of the arts. It is not a down grade; try to visualize it as a real interpretation of what you may already know and understand for yourself. For me to ask a catholic or God fearing individual to accept pre-christian theories is silly on my part. I would not do that. I myself, tend to work with techniques and traditions in terms of 'raw fighting' in systems or ideas that predate christianity. I am also looking into Prankration - not because I may think it is any better than modern schools, but simply because it predates most. I think practitioners were more connected to things like mind, body and spirit in these times than today. We have, for the most part, become detached. If spirituality was not important to me I would simply go to a fighting school that focusses on technique alone. I will be attending a ground grappling school soon so i can be correct in techniques in the dirt, but I will take what I learn there and fully apply it to my spirituality and magic, ritual practices. This promotes me to connect with my MA in a personal way and I also think it makes more more effective in magic, healing, ritual and self defense.

I have many interests. Magic, healing and the martial arts are but one pillar in my life. I also focus on my children, family, education, career, theatre, and sport. I like to subject myself and my children to many different subjects and belief systems.

Anyway, Evolution Fist, as your name implies, you are evolving and I have a feeling your probably very proficient in MA. I appreciate your input and welcome to the debate.

Phoenix