What is Structure to you?

[GlennR]

We're talking about "structure" in wing chun. What we mean by the term, how we define it.

GlennR and YouKnowWho,

No one is comparing dancers and no one is suggesting that dancers in general know anything about fighting.

The only reason that dancers have been mentioned at all is because there has been much research in movement analysis....analysis of human movement in general...done in the field of dance. This is research that could be applied to help us in a purely pedagogical way...give us some tools to better understand what we throwing around terms like "structure".

Hi Sean
Im all good with that, i find your terms useful and like your approach to the teaching. What i get my back up about is Hendrick jumping on any bandwagon to promote his theories. His constant MO is to turn any conversation involving structure around to his agenda (emei, snake tai Chi) and he's latest angle is using the dance analogy... his previous favourite has been cars.
I guess filing cabinets are next ;0

GlennR,
No one is suggesting that a dancer can show you how to punch. But using methods of movement analysis (from biomechanics to Laban movement analysis) can help you understand exactly what you're doing with your body during your punch. This can, in turn, help you teach someone else. Now, maybe you already know....maybe you've already done your analysis....or maybe you don't feel the need for any analysis. That's cool.

Yeh, i get all that. Id love to sit down with you and discuss this, but id suggest that the analysis has been done already by MAists with some biomechanical knowledge.
Having said that, you can never have enough knowledge

Incidentally, what WC guys have you seen that you think have a good structure and why?

[YouKnowWho]

The only reason that dancers have been mentioned at all is because there has been much research in movement analysis....analysis of human movement in general...done in the field of dance. This is research that could be applied to help us in a purely pedagogical way...give us some tools to better understand what we throwing around terms like "structure".

In solo dancing, you flow with the thin air. In joint dancing, your opponent moves with you. No dancer has to deal with opponent's resistence. The structure that we need in TCMA is to "be able to resist against outside force" that dancer will have "no knowledge" about it.

[Sean66]

YouKnowWho,

Read what I wrote. I think I've been pretty clear. But just in case....

You still seem to think that I am comparing dancers and martial artists. I am not.

I am talking about movement analysis. Movement analysis can be used to look at and better understand all human movement.

It just happens that a lot of research in movement analysis has been done by former dancers and dance educators. No wonder, really, since the essence of their trade (like ours) is to be found in the principles that guide human movement.

By the way, dancers deal with resistance and weight from outside all the time. The skills of partnering and contact-improvisation require very refined abilities in regards to feeling and manipulating the center, balance and weight of a partner/partners. Just as the skill of jumping and appearing light requires an intimate knowledge of gravity and how to use the connection with the floor. But this is just an aside, really. Do not mis-interperet this to mean that I am comparing dancers and martial artists.

GlennR,
I'll answer your question, no worries, but I gotta run out the door...I'll try to get back online tonight.

[Hendrik]

Hi Sean
Im all good with that, i find your terms useful and like your approach to the teaching. What i get my back up about is Hendrick jumping on any bandwagon to promote his theories. His constant MO is to turn any conversation involving structure around to his agenda (emei, snake tai Chi) and he's latest angle is using the dance analogy... his previous favourite has been cars.
I guess filing cabinets are next ;0

1, Snake in WCK is not my theories. it is all over WCK lineages since ancient time.

2, it is not snake taichi but Emei.

3, we are discussing dynamic structure here,
with motion analysis, All the three WCK form or set, has the Emei DNA. it is not Hung Gar or Shao Lin. That is a FACT.

If you dont buy it, go a head, get the motion analysis expert to do an analysis.







Do you have anything to offer instead of keep posting off track to attack me?

Just get this straight ; I notice from your posts against me, that started

since a few months ago, when Navin asking for my opinion, and I comment TST's clip is good for demo but not real internal art such as other TCMA IMA, you hold my technical view against me.

and since then you keep posting attack.


If you dont like my comment, that is for Navin and not you any way.

If you like to invite TST here, I am not shy to tell him what my view is and let him and me have a friendly technically discussion.

or if you dont like it, go a head, send the TST clip and the CXW clip to a Motion analist and let them tell you what is TST clip shows compare with the CXW clip.

I could be right, I could be wrong. I am willing to be wrong if the motion analist tell me so. But if I am right, then could you accept you are wrong?

You dont have to agree with me, however, I dont see a point to keep attacking me just because I comment on TST's clip.

I appology if my technical view of TST make you feel hurt.
I hope this post of opening up the root cause put an end to this issue.

[Hendrik]

Quote:
tell me who has a complete WCK system today.

TST and William Cheung in their respective systems

TST and William Cheung has their own system.

and that is might not be even be a complete WCK system of Ip Man lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blv7B...feature=relmfu

How can it be a complete WCK system?




Even Ip Man WCK system is not a complete Chan Wah WCK system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo&feature=fvsr

[Eric_H]

All the three WCK form or set, has the Emei DNA

Hendrik,

Your wing chun doesn't even have 3 forms. You are making an unqualified statement. Snake WCK is your own personal theory based on your Cho Family Wing Chun and Emei training.

As we have discussed before, Yik Kam (your lineage's founder) didn't even call his art wing chun. Additionally, Wong Wa Bo's wing chun does not contain Emei elements and he was far senior to Yik Kam.

Without knowledge of the forms, and without spending the time to learn Wong Wa Bo's version of Wing Chun, by what right do you speak for all "WCK lineages since ancient time"?

[Hendrik]

Incidentally, what WC guys have you seen that you think have a good structure and why?

one doesnt have to seen WC guys. WC guys is not a reference of good structure.



one just has to know what is a full coverage good motion and momentum under motion and momentum analysis. and when one sees a good dynamic structure, be it from any style, from WCK to Taiji to mmA, one will be able to recognized it.

it is physics which matter, not label as in WC or Taichi or Xingyi or sifu XYZ or master ABC.


It is an evident that Sean's friend who did dancing without have to know Chen Taiji or Xing yi be able to identify the content of the dynamic structure of Chen Taiji and Xing Yi top players.


It is also an evident that lots of WCners are mistaken a flat frame similar to a picture to a 3 D motion as in stage dancing.


So, the key is motion and momentum analysis, until one really doesnt have an understanding of the motion in the 3 D space.


If one cant "see" it, one cant make it happen. that is the bottom line of motion.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Your wing chun doesn't even have 3 forms. You are making an unqualified statement. Snake WCK is your own personal theory based on your Cho Family Wing Chun and Emei training.

As we have discussed before, Yik Kam (your lineage's founder) didn't even call his art wing chun. Additionally, Wong Wa Bo's wing chun does not contain Emei elements and he was far senior to Yik Kam.

Without knowledge of the forms, and without spending the time to learn Wong Wa Bo's version of Wing Chun, by what right do you speak for all "WCK lineages since ancient time"?

Who cares about Cho or Yik Kam?



Sifu Sergio is a good neutral WCK researcher, and his youtube on the FACTS of different wing chun lineages is the evident.


you want to agrue? save your energy and the bandwidth of the forum.



send the Sergio's clip,


the following clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQPL...C4DF7B37F8ADD9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maBjU...eature=related


with the Emei clip and Hung Gar clip and Shao lin clip
to an Expert Motion analist and let them tell you which motion "DNA" fits the WCK clips?
I let them tell you what is it.


So, why is the motion DNA analysis is critical? because if one using a Hung Gar way of motion to train an Emei DNA set, one will get no where but wasting effort. it is like keeping training in Iris tapping dancing and Wish some days one becomes a great ballet dancer.


Sometime, I am amazed by how some WCners is similar to a cult follower that rather ignore the law of physics to believe their own cult stories.

[WC1277]

one doesnt have to seen WC guys. WC guys is not a reference of good structure.



one just has to know what is a full coverage good motion and momentum under motion and momentum analysis. and when one sees a good dynamic structure, be it from any style, from WCK to Taiji to mmA, one will be able to recognized it.

it is physics which matter, not label as in WC or Taichi or Xingyi or sifu XYZ or master ABC.


It is an evident that Sean's friend who did dancing without have to know Chen Taiji or Xing yi be able to identify the content of the dynamic structure of Chen Taiji and Xing Yi top players.


It is also an evident that lots of WCners are mistaken a plat frame to a 3 D motion.


So, the key is motion and momentum analysis, until one really doesnt have an understanding of the motion in the 3 D space.


If one cant "see" it, one cant make it happen. that is the bottom line of motion.

And this is where you're completely off structure wise Hendrik.

I was trying to allude to it when I asked you about the center line.

WC structure is completely based on the center line and center of gravity. It is designed to always return to facing automatically without conscious intent... very different from what you're trying to shape it into...

[Hendrik]

And this is where you're completely off structure wise Hendrik.

how can it be completely off to use Physics or motion analysis as a based to investigate dynamic structure?


are we building sand castle in thin air?

I was trying to allude to it when I asked you about the center line.

WC structure is completely based on the center line and center of gravity.

It is designed to always return to facing automatically without conscious intent... very different from what you're trying to shape it into...

Too bad, WC exist within 3 Dimensional space and motion space and law of physics.


Without conscious intent?

tell me, what is a center line in a 2 D plane? a 3D space? a motion 3D space?

and dont tell me a drawn line in a 2 D plane can automatically alive in a motion 3 D space.

[YouKnowWho]

At 4.51, the teacher demonstrated "入馬(Ru Ma) - enter horse (move his front leg between his opponent's legs)". When you apply this principle and if you can force your opponent to move back, you have good "structure", otherwise, you don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw&NR=1

Why can't we talk about "structure" in combat situation instead of just "solo" training? You may train "solo" all your life and oneday you find out that it just doesn't work. Why don't you train and "test" your structure at the same time so you know that you are moving on the right path?

Train -> test -> train -> test -> ... is the best way to develop any skill.

[Hendrik]

Sean,

So, I let go here on this discussion because It is better for others to find out what is going on. The more I share the more I become bad guy.



Finally,

Yes, The ancient writting of WCK has it all.

The layers and layers, the core types, the momentum source handling..... with these elements or dependent variable, a process of training exist which has a specific goal and result.

When these specific and process are missing that is the end of the art. or the dead of the soul.

Someday if you visit California, come to see me, I will share with you what I know 1850 red boat and let you bring them back to Europe and let those who love arts preserve them as a fine arts.

[WC1277]

how can it be completely off to use Physics or motion analysis as a based to investigate dynamic structure?


are we building sand castle in thin air?






Too bad, WC exist within 3 Dimensional space and motion space and law of physics.


Without conscious intent?

tell me, what is a center line in a 2 D plane? a 3D space? a motion 3D space?

and dont tell me a drawn line in a 2 D plane can automatically alive in a motion 3 D space.

2-d : a straight punch, stationary stance

3-d : a bong sau, turning stance

3-d motion : Ma Bo Chi Sao connected to center

[Hendrik]

At 4.51, the teacher demonstrated "入馬(Ru Ma) - enter horse (move his front leg between his opponent's legs)". When you apply this principle and if you can force your opponent to move back, you have good "structure", otherwise, you don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw&NR=1

Do you know that 4.51 has an influence from Yi Chuan to WCK? go read WXZ's book

Do you know that one needs to first have a solid dynamic structure before one can do that?

without a true mastering enter other's middle door is like walking into cannon. try walk into a boxer's middle door and see for yourself.

Why can't we talk about "structure" in combat situation instead of just "solo" training?

You may train "solo" all your life and oneday you find out that it just doesn't work. Why don't you train and "test" your structure at the same time so you know that you are moving on the right path?

Train -> test -> train -> test -> ... is the best way to develop any skill.

No one disagree with you.

The issue is when one cant even have a clear handling the basic of the solo what to talk about combat situation?

[Hendrik]

2-d : a straight punch, stationary stance

3-d : a bong sau, turning stance

3-d motion : Ma Bo Chi Sao connected to center

I could be wrong, however, for me, the above are still Frame not dynamic structure fill with all kind of "fixed" part.


remember what Sean's friend said in her motion analysis description?

7) There is no part of the body "fixed"; the energy circulates, varies and adjusts rapidly