Building strength the TCMA way

[Frost]

Some TCMA strength training is not trying to develop "big muscle" but to develop certain part of body function that we just can't develop through any other exercise.

When you push your opponent's shoulder and "scoop" his foot into your hand, you can obtain your opponent's "single leg" without shooting at his leg. In order to develop such ability, you can

- dig a hole,
- put a Bowling ball (steel ball in ancient time) in that hole, and
- use your inner heel to scoop it out of that hole daily.

I go to gym all the time. I still cannot find any modern gym training equipment that can help me to develop that "particular" skill yet.

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3...nglegseize.jpg

or you could just get strong and then do your sport, you know go from general to specific strength

[Frost]

Franco also took a little martial arts. One time when asked about his bodybuilder physique and how it affected his martial arts he said, "If you hit me, I'll still be standing. If I hit you, you will fall down."

my favourite quote of his was when hes drunk he would walk down a street and lift and move the cars until they make a nice v shape all down the street, he was one strong smart guy

[MightyB]

a sports specific strength athlete would not touch the smith machine, they would use medicine balls, kettlebells, shot puts etc, and there are good reasons for this that anyone with any knowledge would know

lol get of your high horse, you have no idea why good strength coaches put in body building exercises (and even actual body building weeks in their training cycles,) coachs like defranco, Joe Kenn et al all see its value for both recovery from a hard season and also for injury provention, of course they are wrong and you are right i mean so what if they actually train athletes who are paid for their performance, , your not a performance strnegth athlete your a hobby martial arts guy get over yourself

I'm not the one on the high horse. I presented an alternative argument that challenged your assumptions and you got all pi$$y. Granted I tend to do that too - I presented why I think bodybuilding isn't for martial arts, I presented that sport specific strength training is better, I found alternative sources to back my claim, one from a body builder, and that's that.

Guess what? I use medicine balls, kettle bells etc. I was exposed to the smith throw from a Jiu Jitsu guy. Ideally you'd use a free weight bar, but as he put it, why be stupid and risk an injury because you're fatigued or miss the catch? As far as injury prevention, strength training, etc... I'll stick with my guys. They know their $hit.

[Frost]

I'm not the one on the high horse. I presented an alternative argument that challenged your assumptions and you got all pi$$y. Granted I tend to do that too - I presented why I think bodybuilding isn't for martial arts, I presented that sport specific strength training is better, I found alternative sources to back my claim, one from a body builder, and that's that.

Guess what? I use medicine balls, kettle bells etc. I was exposed to the smith throw from a Jiu Jitsu guy. Ideally you'd use a free weight bar, but as he put it, why be stupid and risk an injury because you're fatigued or miss the catch? As far as injury prevention, strength training, etc... I'll stick with my guys. They know their $hit.

nope you went off on one calling bodybuilding gay and god knows what, you dont know anything about body building and very little about athletic development, yo

[MightyB]

nope you went off on one calling bodybuilding gay and god knows what, you dont know anything about body building and very little about athletic development, yo

It is g@y.

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[MightyB]

It is g@y.

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or I could stay with "a waste of time for a martial artist"
or I could say "like masturbation, feels good but what's the point?"

Heck - I'm full of 'em.

I like Gino Sifu's

I get the point of getting stronger, but taking time out of skill practice, fighting class, sparring sessions cuz you want to lift that day is unacceptable. Strength specific techniques are usually built into kung fu training.

Bamboo Twisting - for grip strength

Belt Cracking - for grip strength

Jar Catching - learning to capture a limb

These are just a couple off the top of my head. There are many Weighting exercises geared for explosive attacks and other MA related areas. I think for myself and students, the main goal of strength training is more specific techniques which give them more time to do other stuff (Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou etc).

[IronFist]

RESPECT
In MMA, we beware of guys like you - we call it that "crazy old man strength". We always are more wary of the construction or iron workers cuz they'll get you with that "crazy old man strength". The preppy body builders... meh- Even our smallest guy will have them tapping in the first round.

Someone who trains BJJ can tap out a bodybuilder who doesn't train BJJ?

Stop the press.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"crazy old man strength" ??
Compared to what? guys that don't do ANY ST?
Friend of mine once wanted to compete on a strongman competition, he was freakishly strong, doing labour contruction work all day, bag of cements, barrow full of bricks, the works.
Didn't take my advice about doing ST so I took him to a local strong man gym.
After watching those guys for 30 min, he HAD to try it !
Failed miserably and couldn't understand why.
I didn't understand how he DIDN'T understand.
After reading the last few posts I understand why.

[Taixuquan99]

Lifters and martial artists who frequent forums and read about the material they are working with every day and stay on the cutting edge are not the lifters one most likely runs into.

I'm sorry, but the reality on the ground is that most guys doing weight lifting are not doing heavy research. I worked for twenty years in a field rife with guys who lifted weights, and the quality level, endurance level, and strength level of all but a few of them was not as impressive as their size.

The ones with great strength, yeah, probably better informed. But the fact is, those guys are not the majority by any stretch of the imagination.

[IronFist]

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has "inflated bodybuilder muscles". That's why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn't training for powerlifting.


Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock "sports cars." This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the "big guys."

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we're not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don't gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don't see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I've seen 150 pound dudes doing them. (I mean real one arm pullups, full range, with the non-working arm behind the back. None of this grab-your-wrist stuff).


A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up. They think there's an assumption that being big = being able to fight.

"we tap out bodybuilders"

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.

[Taixuquan99]

"crazy old man strength" ??
Compared to what? guys that don't do ANY ST?
Friend of mine once wanted to compete on a strongman competition, he was freakishly strong, doing labour contruction work all day, bag of cements, barrow full of bricks, the works.
Didn't take my advice about doing ST so I took him to a local strong man gym.
After watching those guys for 30 min, he HAD to try it !
Failed miserably and couldn't understand why.
I didn't understand how he DIDN'T understand.
After reading the last few posts I understand why.

Yes, because strong man gyms are the typical, stark majority of weight lifters.

[Taixuquan99]

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has "inflated bodybuilder muscles". That's why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn't training for powerlifting.


Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock "sports cars." This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the "big guys."

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we're not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don't gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don't see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I see 150 pound dues doing them.


A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up.

"we tap out bodybuilders"

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.

Big is fine, but the point is strength, and a lot of this argument is coming from a false perspective that weight lifters we'll run into are all well informed and strong, and this is hokum.

I worked construction for twenty years, knew my share of weight lifters that one wouldn't want to mess with. They were the minority of the weight lifters. The rest thought a lot of their strength and looks, and left after a week of getting flak for not being able to hack it, just like skinny guys who couldn't, just like fat, etc.

The world isn't some sort of weird promo for weight lifting.

In construction, you favor the guys who've worked for ten years before anyone else, if you need to rely on strength to get something exhausting done. If one or more of them does we3ights, that's a nice bonus, but they won't likely move more sheets faster, if they have a brain in their head.

Further, of the strong guys I know, almost none have even an interest in fighting that isn't already a martial artist, and would really not enjoy the thought of an activity in which their nose might get broken, and probably would get a broken nose against anyone who does any martial arts.

Being afraid of weight lifters is silly. Promoting an image of them as martial is a cartoon.

[MightyB]

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has "inflated bodybuilder muscles". That's why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn't training for powerlifting.


Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock "sports cars." This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the "big guys."

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we're not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don't gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don't see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I've seen 150 pound dudes doing them. (I mean real one arm pullups, full range, with the non-working arm behind the back. None of this grab-your-wrist stuff).


A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up. They think there's an assumption that being big = being able to fight.

"we tap out bodybuilders"

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.

Darn you and your Logic!!! Who invited you to this rant?!?!?

[MightyB]

Big is fine, but the point is strength, and a lot of this argument is coming from a false perspective that weight lifters we'll run into are all well informed and strong, and this is hokum.

I worked construction for twenty years, knew my share of weight lifters that one wouldn't want to mess with. They were the minority of the weight lifters. The rest thought a lot of their strength and looks, and left after a week of getting flak for not being able to hack it, just like skinny guys who couldn't, just like fat, etc.

The world isn't some sort of weird promo for weight lifting.

In construction, you favor the guys who've worked for ten years before anyone else, if you need to rely on strength to get something exhausting done. If one or more of them does we3ights, that's a nice bonus, but they won't likely move more sheets faster, if they have a brain in their head.

Further, of the strong guys I know, almost none have even an interest in fighting that isn't already a martial artist, and would really not enjoy the thought of an activity in which their nose might get broken, and probably would get a broken nose against anyone who does any martial arts.

Being afraid of weight lifters is silly. Promoting an image of them as martial is a cartoon.

We must've worked together or be brothers from anotha mutha 'cuz I have been doing nothing but agreeing with you this whole thread.

[Taixuquan99]

We must've worked together or be brothers from anotha mutha 'cuz I have been doing nothing but agreeing with you this whole thread.

I just always think it's funny when someone comes along saying how a weight lifter would do this and that, fear them. I've got friends who lift, I got friends who I'd want with me in a bad situation, the overlap is not that far off from other groups.

I've seen big strapping guys leave work crying because they weren't used to the way a lot of people in shops and work crews kid anyone for anything, because they had a hard time doing things before they had experience. Afraid of that? I think not.

People are people. Weight lifters aren't any more a concern than most anyone else.