Is there such thing as a "STYLE"?

[MightyB]

Come on man. Really? You're talking about literally tens of thousands (much higher when you take into account China) of practitioners world wide, almost all of which you have had no exposure to. On top of that, you come from a great lineage so I am shocked to know that you needed to learn these applications from judo.

BT

It's an illustration of a point through an allegory statement. But it holds true to this discussion which is "yes, there's such a thing as style" and "yes, it's ok to cross train and still remain true to one style" and weirder yet, "even if you did cross train, it's possible that you did so without leaving the confines of your beginning style". Hence my osoto gari statement. My example is that Mantis has tons of osoto gari, I do Judo which forces competition and specialization in osoto gari - which I learned is one of the most difficult throws to apply in competition even though it's easy to learn, and yes - because of said experience, I still do mantis where I initially learned osoto gari but I've been able to perfect osoto to a degree that you can't do in mantis alone because Judo or SC forces you to compete using a limited framework of moves therefore you develop a specialization in those moves to a much higher degree. For another example from non TCMA - BJJ wins nearly 100% in groundwork but is terrible at throws when compared to Judo. A person from either style could cross train in their opposite and become better than the majority of their contemporaries in their "deficient" skill.

[YouKnowWho]

I am shocked to know that you needed to learn these applications from judo.

The application for "front cut (Osoto Gari)" is simple. The training method that's used in Judo is much more effective than the solo form training used in mantis. If mantis people can train all throws like Judo guys do then mantis guy can compete Judo tournaments and win.

A simple example will be

- How to counter "front cut (Osoto Gari)"?
- If your opponent escapes out of your "front cut (Osoto Gari)", what will you do next?
- ...

If the mantis system can dig deeper into this move as Judo guy do, there will be no need to look for elsewhere. You can't develop your throwing skill just from the solo form training.

[B.Tunks]

It's an illustration of a point through an allegory statement. But it holds true to this discussion which is "yes, there's such a thing as style" and "yes, it's ok to cross train and still remain true to one style" and weirder yet, "even if you did cross train, it's possible that you did so without leaving the confines of your beginning style". Hence my osoto gari statement. My example is that Mantis has tons of osoto gari, I do Judo which forces competition and specialization in osoto gari - which I learned is one of the most difficult throws to apply in competition even though it's easy to learn, and yes - because of said experience, I still do mantis where I initially learned osoto gari but I've been able to perfect osoto to a degree that you can't do in mantis alone because Judo or SC forces you to compete using a limited framework of moves therefore you develop a specialization in those moves to a much higher degree. For another example from non TCMA - BJJ wins nearly 100% in groundwork but is terrible at throws when compared to Judo. A person from either style could cross train in their opposite and become better than the majority of their contemporaries in their "deficient" skill.

Thanks, I understand your point. Firstly, I am an advocate of cross training. secondly I respect judo and acknowledge it's superiority over Tanglang in many facets. In my opinion Tanglang has an approximate equivalent of osotogari but it is not osotogari. Tanglang does not control, grip, bind or destabilise in the same manner as judo and the set ups are completely different. For the purposes of this argument I understand your comparison. From your own words, what you are using is in fact 100% judo osotogari and I do not understand why you need to think of it as Tanglang. There is nothing wrong with learning a technique elsewhere and using it.

From what you wrote above it is clear to me that you did not learn to apply Tanglang destabilisation techniques by application in free-sparring against a fully resistant opponent. If that is the case then this is a deficiency in the training methodology and is no fault of your own. In traditional TLQ (despite what some may have come to believe) every technique must be learnt and drilled solo, pair drilled, it's counter drilled solo and paired then applied against a resistive opponent in graduated free sparring. If in fact you did study this particular technique in this fashion, why didn't you arrive at functional mastery? It is a very simple technique. If this one failed then what about the rest?

If you did develop technical proficiency but the judo method was superior and therefore you substituted it, then you are using judo osotogari not the Tanglang equivalent. Again, nothing wrong with that at all but I don't understand how you can then compare what you are doing against other TLQ people and rate your TLQ skill higher. Not only that, who are you comparing yourself against and how are you doing it? Not every body studied in the manner that you did and it would take several years of travelling around the world for you to discover that.

Sorry, seems very nit picky and petty but it was spurred by your blanket statement which immediately placed you in position of technical superiority over thousands of people without any back up for the claim. Again, I'm glad you are searching for answers and doing so by training to fight (to me it's the right path), I just think that maybe it would be better to admit deficiencies rather than to cover them. If a method from another art is superior then adopt it, but call a spade a spade.

T

[B.Tunks]

The application for "front cut (Osoto Gari)" is simple. The training method that's used in Judo is much more effective than the solo form training used in mantis. If mantis people can train all throws like Judo guys do then mantis guy can compete Judo tournaments and win.

A simple example will be

- How to counter "front cut (Osoto Gari)"?
- If your opponent escapes out of your "front cut (Osoto Gari)", what will you do next?
- ...

If the mantis system can dig deeper into this move as Judo guy do, there will be no need to look for elsewhere. You can't develop your throwing skill just from the solo form training.

Solo training is the most basic and least useful method of learning application, apart from the bag or pad or pad striking component (I left out that vital method from the list in my previous post). If training consists only of solo drilling then it is empty. If you do not train counters to every move then your training is empty. If you do not apply in free sparring, as above.

Of course TLQ does not dig as deep into throwing as Judo - no art does.

Of course you cannot develop throwing skill from solo form training. Solo form training should be the smallest percentage of any combat training. Training throwing without a partner is impossible and without a resistant partner, useless.

BT

[MightyB]

If you did develop technical proficiency but the judo method was superior and therefore you substituted it, then you are using judo osotogari not the Tanglang equivalent. Again, nothing wrong with that at all but I don't understand how you can then compare what you are doing against other TLQ people and rate your TLQ skill higher. Not only that, who are you comparing yourself against and how are you doing it? Not every body studied in the manner that you did and it would take several years of travelling around the world for you to discover that.

Allegory - Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy.
Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning.

Don't read too much into what I write. The points I was trying to express, 1- crosstraining is good, point 2 you can do it within the framework of your style without betraying the style.

[B.Tunks]

Don't read too much into what I write. The points I was trying to express, 1- crosstraining is good, point 2 you can do it within the framework of your style without betraying the style.

I agree with both.

BT

[David Jamieson]

I agree with both.

BT

same. living it.

[Lokhopkuen]

With recent threads talking about how style is not needed and unimportant. It made me rethink what we consider a "Style".

1. What is a Style? What are the components that up a make a Style? Is a style different from a technique? Is "Style" just personal flavor? Is "Style' theory or principle?

2. Do we need a "Style"? Is a round kick a round kick no matter what "style"? If what I do wins every time (in the ring or street) is my style the best? What if I have no style? Is there a need for different "Styles" to martial art situations?

Your comments?

ginosifu

Style=training method.

[lance]

With recent threads talking about how style is not needed and unimportant. It made me rethink what we consider a "Style".

1. What is a Style? What are the components that up a make a Style? Is a style different from a technique? Is "Style" just personal flavor? Is "Style' theory or principle?

2. Do we need a "Style"? Is a round kick a round kick no matter what "style"? If what I do wins every time (in the ring or street) is my style the best? What if I have no style? Is there a need for different "Styles" to martial art situations?

Your comments?

ginosifu

Yes , ginosifu there is such thing as style , which evolve from different countries like Japan , china , phillipines , korea , thailand , indonesia , america , okinawa , africa . These styles all had a history , fighting and self defense techniques , which included their own punching , striking , and kicking techniques and their own use of using certain parts of the body for striking and defending . The founder of these styles all passes their own knowledge of the arts they developed down to generations of people who wanted to learn how to defend themselves and to take care of themselves through mental discipline , physical conditioning and etc , etc .

Because , every country had their own unique way of fighting and self defense .
It ' s up to the individual person themselves to really pick out what martial art they really like to learn . They can either stick to the style as a traditionalists or just pick out what techniques they really like and put it to their own personal use , and move on to the next art of their choice and do the samething . Doing this is what I call non - traditionalist . So the individual does have their own personal choices as to how they would like to approach the art of their choice .
Or the person themeselves can take the time and learn and research all the combative arts of the world and still be able use all the techniques and put it to their own advantages . When you learn more than one fighting arts you also learn more than one way of defending yourself .
And yes , you may come across one obstacle , the techniques you learn may not even work for you so before end up trashing it , experiment with the techniques first , if it works for you , fine you keep it . If it does ' nt work for you at all , no matter how much you try to make it work for you , then trash it . And the logical thing is that there is no sense trying to make the techniques work for you , eventhough it really does ' nt work for you at all . So trash it . I ' m sure the instructors will understand it .

[MightyB]

Style=training method.

I like this.

In the end - you got good kung fu or you don't.


Style is just what got you there.