Tan Sao against jab

[Graham H]

Your statement implies that there is only ONE way to do something to ensure success--this is flawed thinking. People are different. We have different physiques, different strengths, different weaknesses. The opponent plays a major factor in the success of a technique as well for the same reasons. IMO the reason why WC can't work for many is because of people using your method of thinking. You don't see boxers, wrestlers, judoka, jujitsu stylists, karateka, Muay Thai stylists, and other fighters nitpicking the angle of a block, the setup for a throw, or saying there's only one way to throw a jab. In fact they embrace that people innovate and work the techniques to create success for themselves. THAT is what a true fighter does.
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I think you have totally misunderstood my point me old china, because you say my thinking is flawed and then compliment my POV in the same sentence.

Let me make it simple for you people with a lower IQ......some people protest that Tan Sau is a palm up block used for blocking hooks. Some other people say it's for driving into your opponent and is only used in poon sau. Some other people say that Tan Sau is a punchinc concept (like me)..........I could go on and give conflicting ideas on the other arm actions but there is no point.

So lets take two ideas. One is a block, one is a punch. So are you saying that which one we use depends on size, strength and weaknesses??? My idea of Tan Sau has nothing to do with blocking. If you are trying to convince me that both are "interpretations" and that is acceptable then go to the back of the room and stand with your hands on your head facing the wall!!

GH

[Graham H]

Here's another one.................

fook sau is for sensing your opponents arm force at the wrist or is it a punching concept?

Interpretation or misunderstanding??

<<<<<in a small voice>>>> "i'm small so i use fook sau for sensing big man energy so I can use his force against him"

<<<<<in a deep voice>>>> "I'm a big guy so I punch people with it!"

Maybe I sit on the fence. It can be both but can also be used for digging holes in sand coz my Sifu said so!

LMAO

[Graham H]

...insert English sarcasm to the above! LOL

[Ozzy Dave]

Here's another one.................

fook sau is for sensing your opponents arm force at the wrist or is it a punching concept?

Lets say punching concept Graham, so what's the difference between a fook sao punch and a jum sao punch?

Dave

[wingchunIan]

If tan sau and fook sau are just punching concepts then why do they exist at all? why not just punch? If you're trying to train punches you punch, if you want to train the punching angle you do it whilst punching, if you want to train covering the centreline or recovering the centreline whilst punching then you do just that. I don't disagree that the shapes can help in developing punching attributes but to say that it is their only use is IMO a very incomplete view, however it could of course come down to semantics and the scope of "punching concepts"

[Graham H]

Lets say punching concept Graham, so what's the difference between a fook sao punch and a jum sao punch?

Dave

Fook Sau trains the elbow for the punch and Jum Sau is a punch. Fook Sau, like Tan Sau, is abstract! They train and develop the correct behaviour for punching, in other words changing our normal habits, so that we can punch correctly according to Ving Tsun theory.

Jum Sau uses the inside of the elbow to clear the way for the punch (should it be required) and Tan Sau uses the outside of the elbow. These two concepts coupled with the correct punching methods and strategies allows us to always press the opponent whilst attacking, defending our center, clearing the path for the punch and always finding the quickes route the the target all in one go.

The basic idea of using Tan Sau to block a hook whilst using the other hand to punch is NOT good VT application but is practiced in so many schools. That is generally what is considered "simultaneously attacking and defending" but I found a better way of thinking. WSLPB's way.

GH

[Graham H]

If tan sau and fook sau are just punching concepts then why do they exist at all? why not just punch? If you're trying to train punches you punch, if you want to train the punching angle you do it whilst punching, if you want to train covering the centreline or recovering the centreline whilst punching then you do just that. I don't disagree that the shapes can help in developing punching attributes but to say that it is their only use is IMO a very incomplete view, however it could of course come down to semantics and the scope of "punching concepts"

Refer to my post and remember one thing.....I was in the same lineage as you for 8 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GH

[Graham H]

I think your view is extremely incomplete. Not your fault obviously.

[wingchunIan]

Refer to my post and remember one thing.....I was in the same lineage as you for 8 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GH

we can agree to disagree. Out of interest when you say same lineage what / who do you mean?

[Graham H]

we can agree to disagree. Out of interest when you say same lineage what / who do you mean?

Because I have been exposed to your way of thinking. You haven't been exposed to mine.

[Graham H]

Answer me this................Why do we push Tan Sau/Fook Sau out so slowly in SLT????

[Ozzy Dave]

Fook Sau trains the elbow for the punch and Jum Sau is a punch. Fook Sau, like Tan Sau, is abstract! They train and develop the correct behaviour for punching, in other words changing our normal habits, so that we can punch correctly according to Ving Tsun theory.

Jum Sau uses the inside of the elbow to clear the way for the punch (should it be required) and Tan Sau uses the outside of the elbow. These two concepts coupled with the correct punching methods and strategies allows us to always press the opponent whilst attacking, defending our center, clearing the path for the punch and always finding the quickes route the the target all in one go.

Thanks Graham, I like the concept.

Dave

[sanjuro_ronin]

I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

Any ideas?

Nunchuck Guy

Do NOT try to "block" a jab, ever and most certainly never "commit" to blocking a jab, ever.
Wanna get your WC to a point that it can deal with good kickboxers?
No problem.
Find some good kickboxers, fight them, fix what doesn't work and voila, mission accomplished.

[wingchunIan]

Because I have been exposed to your way of thinking. You haven't been exposed to mine.

you keep saying so but what / who do you mean? PM me if you don't want to say on the forum.

As for why the actions are done slowly there are many reasons, amongst them to develop muscle memory for shapes, paths of travel and stopping points as well as learning to relax.

[LoneTiger108]

The basic idea of using Tan Sau to block a hook whilst using the other hand to punch is NOT good VT application but is practiced in so many schools. That is generally what is considered "simultaneously attacking and defending" but I found a better way of thinking. WSLPB's way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLWzRD4CKTY

Here is an example of exactly what you are saying G, and Sifu Dyde is Sam Kwoks number one promoter in the UK at the moment representing Ip Ching and what they like to call 'Ip Man Wing Chun'. He moves well and is known as a decent fighter.

I find nothing wrong in using Tan Da as Steve does in the clip (around 13secs onwards) as he is doing so with courage and committment against a guy who is also 'trying' but I do understand what you are saying because if you have no structure then the Tan and punch idea can simply be blown out of the water against a decent boxer.

With regards to Tan being a block or punch?? Er.... I can't be bothered!