Why does it have to be either-or?
Why do I have to choose between training for sport (pressure-testing my skills in a safe environment) and training for the street (role-play and drills). AND why can't both these arenas cross over with each other?
Why does it have to be either-or?
Why do I have to choose between training for sport (pressure-testing my skills in a safe environment) and training for the street (role-play and drills). AND why can't both these arenas cross over with each other?
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory. Friedrich Engels
Yes you are.
I will share something with you. I actually have no problem in any Wing Chun student or Sifu learning other arts. It's just human nature to investigate as much as we can. I done the same, before I started Wing Chun.
But I do have a problem with information from these other arts bleeding into the Wing Chun itself, and then attempting to sell the final product as a new variation of Wing Chun. I prefer to say it how it is. For example, this is Wing Chun with Escrima. The European Wing Tsun guys are big on this, and they seem to enjoy themselves which for me is all that matters in the end. But they keep the two systems separate. Yes, they have similarities, but you will know what I mean.
Now let me ask you this:
If I was to share with you a double stick method that 'seemed familiar' to you because of your Escrima experience, but it simply was not within the methods you knew, could you accept that this was Wing Chun Double Stick?? Have you ever seen or heard of the double stick methods of my Sigung? Or my Sifu? probably not.
This is where it gets complicated imho, because the popularity and excellence of the Filipino Arts has sort of shunned my lineage into silence because we have a double stick method that has been passed on from my Sigung, and he never studied any Filipino Arts! He was a knife man, and the way we utilize our blades is different than the Filipino way, and this too is reflected in our double stick practices... so why would I take up Escrima? Can you see what I mean?
Phew! I will take a breath now!
Ti Fei
詠春國術
Spencer, this is getting interesting.
It's not the weaponry I'm questioning, it's the training methods. How you train to fight 1 on 1 or small group vs. small group is very different than how you train to fight a large set piece battle using thousands of men.In fact I totally agree with your view, especially in respect to modern warfare and weaponry development. But does this also mean that you under appreciate the weaponry tha existed in Martial Arts 100/500/1000 years ago?
Our pole and knife practises are deep rooted in older traditions FME and this is all I am suggetsing here in relation to other Martial Arts that do not include ANY weaponry of such in their training... like BJJ and boxing for example.
A good example could be the long pole or long spear. When used in a more personal combat situation will have a different flavor than the long spear being used by 500 men in heavy armor and large shields. They will be fighting and moving as a group, the front row responsible for shield work and some short sword and the long spears be used by the 2nd and 3rd rows to extend out from the shields. The whole "style" of use and footwork will be different.
Now once the formation was broken and the battle was reduce to more one on one fighting then your "martial artists" may actually have an advantage.
Mike
Yes, I will. I will always think there's still methods out there that are not yet discovered by many. Honestly, the name is not my main concern. If it's effective then that's all that matters. I'm more concern how can I learn it and if not possible, learn how to deal with it.
That's fair and I understand where you're coming from. You can still cross-train to test it out if it works well outside of it's ways.
:-).
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
In retrospect...there is no such thing as a complete fighting system. Nor is there a such thing as a superior fighting system.
There are three facts
1.Some people are naturally talented fighters even with out martial training
2.Some people will only amount to mediorce fighting ability even with years of training
3.Some people are more skilled than others no matter what art you know
If Your WC doesn't work on BJJ, Karate, Boxing, Muay Thai or someone other art. Its not really the art that is better. Its the person skill level your fighting. Those who practice fighting will have more skills at fighting. Those who practice forms, drills, and chi sau will be more skilled at those things.
Case and Point: Someone you fought who beat the hell out of you. Try and get them to do chi sau or push hands with you. Gurantee you will dominant them at those two things. No matter how skilled they are at fighting.
The more familiar you are with chi sau or tuishou the better you will be. Someone who has been doing it longer will better than guy who just started learning a year ago...The same is true for fighting. The more you fight, the better you get at it. Some people are just naturally more skilled at fighting than others!
So when you fight and win remember its because you were more skilled than person you fought and not because WC is superior to what their doing...A good Jeet Kune Do guy who is extremely skilled at fighting can definitely beat any Sifu with Zero Fight experience outside of chi sau!
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
others have pulled your post apart...i see my point to be honest no offence but you wouldn't get my point of view
Put a long pole in paul daleys hand and im sure he would most trained sifu including you, the dog brothers showed what happens to people who dont fight but think they know about weapons when they face an aggressive opponent used to taking hits
Priceless. Youre labeling certain MA's (that arent your flavour) as sports and dont find that negative or offensive to the practitioners? And your calling me negativeHopefully this will be my last post on this thread, as I think I have said enough. Some of these negative comments just needed a response!
Gee, he can use Google. Congrats Spencer. But re read it again and TALK to a KK guy and youll see it as way way more than a sportTranslate 'Kyokushin' for us all because you are so off the mark it makes me smile... actually this is a perfect example of what I am trying to put across here.
"Kyokushin kaikan (極真会館) is a style of stand-up, full contact karate, founded in 1964 by Korean-Japanese karate master Masutatsu Oyama"
In other words, a new creation designed to promote 'sport' competition.
Youre such a knob. I respond directly to your ideas (not personal) and you twist it to make it seem im attacking you personally..... something you kick and scream about when it doesnt suit youReally? I think your response is very offensive! lol!
Ok gotcha, so youre just an idiot and you didnt mean for it to be offensiveWhatever I have written here is meant to be discussed, no offence is intended dude so try re-reading it all again...
No, but you still didnt answer my question. You didnt make the debating team at school did you. You used the other arts as references so dont get your panties in a knot if you get picked up on itOh! Did I actually say that?? No. The question I am addressing is what makes a system, or more specifically our Wing Chun system, COMPLETE.
Ahhhh, so by your way of thinking a short form is not as valid as a short form. Incidentally a jab, cross jab is about as systematic as you get. So Kulo isnt valid then??This is not what structured 'form' is. Form isn't FREESTYLE. So unless Jack Dempsey passed on his specific shadow boxing combos and such in a set pattern, you are clutching at straws with this one imho.
Answer the question, where is the "cut-off" then? 2 weapons seems low in comparison to some styles, or did WC get it "just right" like baby bears porridge?Ah! here you crash and burn lol!! And no, this is not what I am saying with regards to the more weapons you have the more complete your system.
I Read it again and i stand by what i say.Again dude, what the hell are you reading?? I do get worried when people that shout about how great they are seem to not be able to read simple posts. You have totally got the wrong impression I was aiming to put across, so please READ AGAIN!!
You literally said that those styles were sports , not martial arts. What the hell are YOU reading?
I dont fancy having a Google war of martial arts weaponry knowledge with you. Lets just say that you know im rightPlenty of other Chinese Martial Artists? Really? C'mon, you may as well drop their names...
Scholar? Do tell.Ip Man was a scholar and Martial Artist (according to his family) so I can only presume that he knew exactly what he was doing!! Which is so much more than I can say about others. And FWIW I also hope Wing Chun evolves because that is it's nature. It is also why we are named Wing Chun.
That gives good insight into you. You think that him being a scholar adds weight to his credibility as a Martial Artist (which you latch onto constantly).
Youre constantly trying to create some sort of elitism in regards to how people (in your opinion) should approach their martial art. And if they dont have the same mindset they are just doing a "sport"
Oh, and you dont want it to evolve, it would bring down your house of cards
I "practiced" last night against some "sportsmen" for about an hour, after some incomplete padwork and non-martial art shadow boxing. We then had a discussion about how we wished we were scholars with the ability to use weapons that we arent allowed to carry............But you would know this if you practised the system wouldn't you?
Yes! I'm serious.
Are you saying "combat MA" is superior than "sport MA"? I don't know how you can "test" your combat skill without using a "safe sport environment".
You go to
- gloden glove boxing tournament to test your punching skill.
- kickboxing tournament to test your kick/punch skill.
- SC/Judo/wrestling tournament to test your grappling skill.
- Sanda/Sanshou tournament to test your kick/punch/throw skill.
- MMA tournament to test your kick/punch/lock/throw/ground skills.
- short weapon tournament to test your knife/sword skill.
- long weapon tournament to test your spear/staff/pole skill.
Without testing your skill against others MA styles, how will you know that you "have it" or you "don't have ut"? Is there another way to "test" your combat skill? Please share your method here?
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-29-2012 at 05:23 PM.
I assume if he is not talking about "combat" then he must talk about "health", "performance", and "spiritual development".
- Are you a "perfect" health person?
- Are you a "perfect" performance person?
- Are you a "perfect" spiritual person?
The word "complete" will have no meaning at all. This is why I have to assume that this thread is talking about "combat" and "combat" only.
That's a good list indeed.
- solo training (polish),
- partner training (develope),
- equipment training (enhance),
- weapon training,
- cultureal training (not sure this is needed),
I also like to add
- tournament experience (test).
When someone said that someone has great skill, my teacher always said, "I don't know. I have never met that person in tournament."
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-29-2012 at 05:44 PM.
Hmmm. No obvious improvement so far. How long before we should see this starting to kick in?rather than when I was a kid who just wanted to be a better human being.
"Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
"We are all one" - Genki Sudo
"We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
"Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander
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