Sabatoge at the Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships

[Pork Chop]

This can be difficult if the gear is reused. In events where the gear is owned by the promoter and supplied to the competitor, the promoter must make sure that there is an inspection with the competitor when the gear is provided to them. Then, when it is handed back, it must be cleaned and disinfected (blood and other bodily fluids must be removed and the objects need to be sanitized...like a wash down with bleach and then alcohol (alcohol is mainly to remove the bleach smell and residue).

The gear has to be checked for breaks and tears at each point.

I'm mainly stressing over gloves; because there are legitimate issues when non-standard gloves are used.

The requirements you list are the same requirements that amateur boxing has and I've never even heard of an event where USA Boxing didn't supply gloves. I believe the on-site medical staff usually wipes the gloves down, inside and out, with sanitary wipes, quick process.

Headgear, shin guards, and chest guards are a completely different story.
Headgear should be USA Boxing certified.
The other 2 should have some sort of consensus as to what's acceptable.

[Orion Paximus]

John Ervin Sifu - You probably know him yourself. He studied with GM Chang back in the 80's when he was here in Cleveland.

ginosifu

One other question, did you consult your Sifu prior to coming to a public forum to call out Nick Scrima? Remember, in all things, you represent your teacher with every thing you do.

[Pork Chop]

But since Taiji Legacy guts the fighters and makes them pay because they can't sell tickets, it's a losing proposition for them. They don't need spectators because the fighters pay HUGE entry fees. What a joke.

Yeah, I can't defend ANY of Taiji Legacy's practices when it comes to Sanshou.
High entrance fee, no insurance, no sanctioning, completely arbitrary & flexible weight classes (there was an event in the past where they included 187+ as heavyweight), non standard gloves (you could step up there with 14oz super bag gloves and get away with it - not that cr@ppy everlast gloves from Academy are any better), glove weights changing within a month of the event (2009, the glove requirement dropped from 16 to 14 around 4 to 6 weeks out from the event), and medical personal that may be volunteers found the day of the event.

I think that's why I never pulled the trigger. I know none of my muay thai coaches were ever thrilled about me doing that event.

[mooyingmantis]

Gino,

Here is my two cents on the issue.

GLW makes excellent points about supplying the equipment. I definitely would NOT. Competitors should be given specific information on which pieces of equipment to bring and no exceptions should be made.

Wiping off gloves between rounds with most cleaners, even bleach is not sufficient to kill Hepatitis germs. In Ohio medical facilities, the standard is that bleach must be applied to a surface and left to stand for one hour to guard against the spread hepatitis. Simply wiping off equipment with sanitary wipes doesn't cut it.

Boxing or MMA matches where fighters are paid to fight and local or regional martial arts tournaments have little in common. Most local or even regional tournaments historically have catered to children and teens. Adults have been the minority. They give sports-oriented kids a martial arts "little league" experience and a safe environment where they can practice their strikes and strategies against others outside of their own guan/dojo. They were not designed for people to beat the hell out of each other.

So the questions you need to have clear in your mind are: "What is the GLKFC trying to be? What is the goal of the tournament? Who are the target competitors? What is the target audience?"

As far as HIV testing, did you know?

1. You can be exposed to HIV, yet it not be transmitted to you.
2. Three to four days after you have been infected with HIV, you can transmit the virus to others.
3. Testing for HIV should occur no sooner than ONE MONTH after possible exposure. If the test comes back negative after one month, another test must be taken at three months to confirm the result.

So on-site testing for HIV would be dicey at best and would be NO guarantee of a fighters freedom from infection.

Just some thoughts!

[GLW]

The gloves can be a problem in those cases. The way the more "standardized" competitions and organizations have dealt with that (and unfortunately, there are many fewer standard events than non-standard ones) - is that they specify the equipment in such a way that the competitor pretty much has to buy the exact type and often the exact brand required.

For example, if you specify ## Ounce Olympic Regulation boxing gloves with laces, and so on, and then specify hand wraps to a great detail... you end up with a particular boxing glove...and you then specify a check of equipment by officials (a standard even required for things like weapons form competitions).

the other guards and protectors can be specified the same way.

In the past, I was dealing with rules with one well know CMA organization...and they would not make the safety equipment mandatory...it was "recommended" and if used, had to be of a certain type. This led to injuries with the macho types who felt they did not need protective gear. Crazy....

[Pork Chop]

Wiping off gloves between rounds with most cleaners, even bleach is not sufficient to kill Hepatitis germs. In Ohio medical facilities, the standard is that bleach must be applied to a surface and left to stand for one hour to guard against the spread hepatitis. Simply wiping off equipment with sanitary wipes doesn't cut it.

I've seen amateur kickboxing events where only a few pairs were utilized and were sanctioned bouts. I can not speak with authority on how the gear was cleaned, but I can say that they were not left to sit for hours.

USA Amateur Boxing tournaments often run for days and can have upwards of 100 bouts; I doubt they have a brand new pair for each bout, and they ARE provided.

As far as protecting against Hepatitis, I'll get to that in a second.

Boxing or MMA matches where fighters are paid to fight and local or regional martial arts tournaments have little in common.

I made specific amateur boxing bouts under the provision & sanctioning of USA Boxing. I also have experience with amateur kickboxing/muay thai events put on by the USKBA, WKA, USMTA, and other regional promotions.
We're not talking pro fighters; we're talking about how TCMA tournaments fleece & endanger the health of amateur full contact fighters.

Most local or even regional tournaments historically have catered to children and teens. Adults have been the minority. They give sports-oriented kids a martial arts "little league" experience and a safe environment where they can practice their strikes and strategies against others outside of their own guan/dojo. They were not designed for people to beat the hell out of each other.

I don't think this has been the case at all in my experience of the TCMA tournament circuit on the east coast. I used to work the Wong tournament in DC, I attended the Wong Fei Hung tournament in Jersey, the Yin Yang tournament in Maryland, Taiji Legacy, the Five Tigers tournament in Maryland, and countless others.

While there were always childrens divisions, adults were hardly a minority.
The typical TCMA tournament way of doing things is to ignore san shou altogether and allow for full contact in completely unregulated, continuous, "medium"-contact "sparring" events. I've seen more broken bones & serious injuries in continuous sparring than in full contact events - mostly caused by inconsistent enforcement of the rules about "no face contact" and the fact that competitors are using sub-standard gear (like foam dipped karate chops).

So on-site testing for HIV would be dicey at best and would be NO guarantee of a fighters freedom from infection.

Blood tests for any sanctioned full contact event are NOT done on site.
They are done in the weeks before the event.
TCMA tournaments do not require proof of the test as sanctioned events do.
The most you'll get is a statement saying "don't come to our tournament with a disease" type statement.
If your bloodwork's not clean, you won't be fighting at a sanctioned amateur event, period. So defending against Hepatitis is done by policy before the event and not through the handling of the equipment.

[mooyingmantis]

Porkchop,

I do not have any dispute with anything you have posted above. I agree!

I have been judging in various tournaments since 1978. Most were karate/taekwondo based tourneys rather than TCMA. Though I have judged a few years at the Great Lakes Championship and the Hall of Fame Championship (both TCMA), plus a kung fu tourny in Louisiana many years ago. So, I can only say what I have seen.

My point about HIV is that I can be tested in April, but would not know for certain if I was clear of infection until at least August. If I competed this summer, well you get the idea. Also, I could be cleared today, have unprotected sex tomorrow and be ready to infect others by Saturday or Sunday of this weekend. So, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in pre-testing. Not that it isn't a good idea. I just wouldn't rely on it if I was really concerned about infection.

I also agree that if we are going to run a full contact event, the safety of the competitor must be paramount! Proper equipment and medical staff is a must.

Like you, I have seen unnecessary injuries at TCMA tournys. I was once "excused" as a judge in a "continuous, "medium"-contact "sparring" event" because a competitor was using excessive contact and I stopped the fight several times to warn him. I was replaced by a well-known kung fu sifu who showed no regard for the safety of the competitors. Within two minutes the out of control competitor had broken his opponent's nose. This should never have happened.

[Pork Chop]

My point about HIV is that I can be tested in April, but would not know for certain if I was clear of infection until at least August. If I competed this summer, well you get the idea. Also, I could be cleared today, have unprotected sex tomorrow and be ready to infect others by Saturday or Sunday of this weekend. So, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in pre-testing. Not that it isn't a good idea. I just wouldn't rely on it if I was really concerned about infection.

I also agree that if we are going to run a full contact event, the safety of the competitor must be paramount! Proper equipment and medical staff is a must.

You're totally correct that blood tests do have their limitations.

It's probably not a bad idea, if gloves are be to provided, that they be fresh gloves for each fighter. With multi-bout tournaments, it gets difficult - either you have a ton of gloves, you trust people to disinfect their own equipment, or you do it for them. None of those 3 options are particularly ideal.

You almost wish that the same sifus who put such a concerted effort into bending the rules to allow for full contact continuous sparring would put the same effort into establishing and promoting a safe venue for legitimate full contact competition.

[ginosifu]

GLW / Pork Chop / Mooyingmantis

you guys all make good points. Safety is an issue and I am concerned for the fighters. However, with a small to medium size event such as ours, is it economically feasable to to do blood testing weeks / months in advance? When we required people to have certain gear (we even put it in writing), people either did not show or showed up with the wrong gear or no gear at all. Yes there were supposed to know the correct gear to wear, but a lot of times it just derailes the event because half of the fighters showed up with the wrong or no gear. Yes we get there money.... but this does not promote the tourney well with no one fighting. Will we end up with very few fighters because of all the hoops they must go thru and pay an entrance fee for our event?

The OAC will now be watching John Ervin and his events so they are probably going to force him to either join the organization or not do any San Shou. As for where are tournament is going, John has always put fighting in front. Combat whether Shuai Chiao or Shuai Chiao and San Shou would be prepferrable to him.

If it was up to me, I would have gotten rid of all the forms years ago and just stuck with SC, SS and possibly continuous light contact.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

If it was up to me, I would have gotten rid of all the forms years ago and just stuck with SC, SS and possibly continuous light contact.

I don't think you can survive any tournament without form competation. Someone has to pay the bill. Some people just love to pay you money and be judged. Not sure I can understand that kind of thinking. If someone asks me to give performance to entertain him, I want that person to pay me.

[MasterKiller]

As far as HIV testing, did you know?

1. You can be exposed to HIV, yet it not be transmitted to you.
2. Three to four days after you have been infected with HIV, you can transmit the virus to others.
3. Testing for HIV should occur no sooner than ONE MONTH after possible exposure. If the test comes back negative after one month, another test must be taken at three months to confirm the result.

So on-site testing for HIV would be dicey at best and would be NO guarantee of a fighters freedom from infection.

Just some thoughts!

Blood tests have to be redone every 12 months, usually at the fighter's expense.

[Oso]

tough break Gino. hard to say about Scrima...talk to him and find out what he says.

but, this might be an opportunity for you and Sifu Ervin to sit down and evaluate what you both want the event to be and what sort of political hoops you're willing to jump through.

I've enjoyed every trip to Sifu Ervin's tournament and to the ill-fated mantis 'conference' in '05 that he sponsored at his school. I've not met many people in the martial world with the integrity of Sifu Ervin and his group.

Everyone makes great points about both the 'medium contact' BS you see and the need to make any full-contact event safe for the fighters. I've never worried about general safety at the GLKFC. But, in general, the CMA world does need to update to modern safety precautions...most especially the Lei Tai events in the kuoshou world...that equipment is dangerous.

[GLW]

This is one of the issues with full contact events. The Boxing Commissions in the states with tougher laws are often corrupt but they do provide for a level of safety. The fighters are required to have some level of physical examination and keep their licensing or certification current to be able to fight. The promoters for events ARE put in a position to have the commission with its hand in their pockets. But, they are also required to have a minimum level of medical staff, safety procedure, and many of those involved know about barrier techniques in regards to bodily fluids and disease prevention.

Personally, I decided ages ago I wanted nothing to do with this aspect of CMA events for just this reason. While there has never been an incident of HIV or Hepatitis that could be traced directly to exposure from blood in a combat event (at least to my knowledge), and the danger IS less than that for say a dental hygeinist, there is still a danger. If there were an effort to make the officials aware of the danger and to deal with it, it would be one thing. However, in CMA events, this danger is completely ignored.

Then, over the past few years with the Boxing Commission rules coming in, I have avoided the full contact areas because I want nothing to do with having to know if the event is doing things legally or not.

[Pork Chop]

Just to be clear, my comments about tcma tourneys is not something directed at gino.
I don't know anything about his (sifu's) tourney and their practices.
In fact, I support anybody putting on a sanshou event; I would like to see more of them.

Given that gino's in Ohio; my initial thought is - "Why not bring on someone like Scott Sheeley to handle the sanshou aspect of things?". Scott's got a lot of experience with putting on sanshou events. I imagine if he doesn't want to take over that aspect of it, or consult on how to do it right, then at least he might be able to point to someone who can help.

The sad fact is that full contact events are a whole other level of headache than running a standard forms-based tourney and if you'd like to include those events, then having someone who's sole purpose is organizing it might be your best bet.

One thing I always found lacking with full contact events tacked onto forms tournaments is promotion. It'd be a great way to sell spectator tickets and maybe even make back some of the money required to throw the event.

[ginosifu]

Given that gino's in Ohio; my initial thought is - "Why not bring on someone like Scott Sheeley to handle the sanshou aspect of things?". Scott's got a lot of experience with putting on sanshou events. I imagine if he doesn't want to take over that aspect of it, or consult on how to do it right, then at least he might be able to point to someone who can help.

Scott Sheely's Iron Tigers are good guys and they have good stuff. However, they run their rule set a bit differently than ours, that's why we don't do anything with him. I have had some of my fighter fight at his events.... nice guy

ginosifu