Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[Alan Orr]

You're a total hypocrite through and through, simple as that. You've told people yourself what you think is going on in the clips they post as well. I'll take your stance then as well. You don't know what you're talking about in regards to WSL, Fong, etc. you don't do those systems. You do CSL, remember? You also do sport fighting and are incredibly ignorant to think that others haven't tested their wing chun of choice. You said earlier that you can still use skill when going hard and I agree but if you don't perfect when not going hard you're just trying to test amateur skill and thinking its high level skill. To me, in my very humble opinion, your skill IS amateur at best under the guise of thinking hard training equals ability. Your clips no longer interest me. Goodbye

I know these other styles better that most. I have trained in lots of wing chun other the years, then I found CSL which answered all the problems I was having. I have rolled with many guys with 25+ in lots of different branches, so I do know what I am doing works just fine. I never said others have not tested their wing chun. I have a friends in WT and other systems that have. I train with friends in other styles of wing chun. We don't all have the same ideas but we can workout together. It is just clear that many wing chun styles or people do not test of push out of the comfort zone.

[Alan Orr]

Well said Alan. I guess, everyone on this forum should learn from this.

Thank you.

[Alan Orr]

And if more WC people did it, then chi sao would be put into its proper perspective as the simple drill that it is and NOT what WC is all about.

This is very true

[k gledhill]

And if more WC people did it, then chi sao would be put into its proper perspective as the simple drill that it is and NOT what WC is all about.

Chi-sao is the root of all evil today

[Jeff_H]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKncYG7rUk

Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

New Clip today. This is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. It may be different to some others. Just sharing my clip.

very nice training session. Loose format from typical chi sao rolling + mix up with touch n go. Looks like fun.

Suggestion is to improve on your bridging. Lots of contact with no result. When you make contact it ends up more like blocks instead of penetration. Block stick kick and punch, but sticking should have more wedging/prying open.

[Jeff_H]

I know these other styles better that most. I have trained in lots of wing chun other the years, then I found CSL which answered all the problems I was having. I have rolled with many guys with 25+ in lots of different branches, so I do know what I am doing works just fine. I never said others have not tested their wing chun. I have a friends in WT and other systems that have. I train with friends in other styles of wing chun. We don't all have the same ideas but we can workout together. It is just clear that many wing chun styles or people do not test of push out of the comfort zone.

agreed on cultural exchange across lineages

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chi-sao is the root of all evil today

Well...what people have MADE it to be seems to be the root of all evil in WC !
Imaging a MT guys saying that clinch drills is everything in MT or a grappler saying that the "over/under" drill is the HEART of Grappling .

[Phil Redmond]

Very true Phil.

I did run an event a few years ago. Full contact Strikes below the neck and touch contact to the head in Chi Sao. My guys won 8 golds and 1 silver. Out of the 9.

This year I was looking to run it again, but we had no takers.


I will be setting up an event for every 3-4 months to try to get more people interested. I would also be happy to enter as well.

Regarding no takers I expected as much. I'm continually defending Wing Chun to fighters in other MAs who think WC is a joke as a fighting art. I can understand where they're coming from though. After all, they see us criticize real fights because they don't see the perfect techniques seen in demos and chi sao clips where only one guy is attacking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Regarding no takers I expected as much. I'm continually defending Wing Chun to fighters in other MAs who think WC is a joke as a fighting art. I can understand where they're coming from though. After all, they see us criticize real fights because they don't see the perfect techniques seen in demos and chi sao clips where only one guy is attacking.

When a MA has issues with people asking to see it in a real fight ( one person trying to beat on the other), then one should wonder what kind of MA it is.
When a MA has people criticizing it over and over and over then those practicing should ask themselves, why?

[Robinhood]

I think it is interesting that reguardless of house, style or level of skill, pretty much every clip ever shown here gets torn a new one. This forum has some of the best VT and kung fu masters and experts in the whole world sharing and rubbing elbows, yet few can agree on even the most universal of ideas concepts and techniques. In fact, this is heartening to me. Gung fu is truely a mystery that reveales itself anew to all that climb it's ranks. It also shows that dispite all it's benifits, even the masters still struggle with what it all means and with their own (and others) egos. You guys are all so good I don't always understand the disagreements. I think I'm gonna go back to lurk mode awhile unless I've really got something to share. I was going to share some clips but there doesn't seem to be much but derision to honest open sharing. If any one really wants to see they're in my facebook page. Even though a fighter, I'm guess I'm too thin skinned for this kind of 'scrapping'.

Yes most forums are run by regulars that can be described by the saying "the empty vessel bellows loudest ", this is one of the better forums because moderators are better, MAP is one of the worst , "Rum soaked Fist " has some good guys , but they don't post much because of the low level of moderator knowledge.

Forums are a fun read, like comic strip, but don't take to seriously, the best people never post videos, and stay low key.

It seems more like the people that are posting on you tube are probably more doing it for marketing purpose or ego reasons.



Cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think it is interesting that reguardless of house, style or level of skill, pretty much every clip ever shown here gets torn a new one. This forum has some of the best VT and kung fu masters and experts in the whole world sharing and rubbing elbows, yet few can agree on even the most universal of ideas concepts and techniques. In fact, this is heartening to me. Gung fu is truely a mystery that reveales itself anew to all that climb it's ranks. It also shows that dispite all it's benifits, even the masters still struggle with what it all means and with their own (and others) egos. You guys are all so good I don't always understand the disagreements. I think I'm gonna go back to lurk mode awhile unless I've really got something to share. I was going to share some clips but there doesn't seem to be much but derision to honest open sharing. If any one really wants to see they're in my facebook page. Even though a fighter, I'm guess I'm too thin skinned for this kind of 'scrapping'.

When anyone posts clip of what THEY THINK is the correct way of doing something, they are opening themselves for critique.
AND rightly so.
Discussion leads to debate.
This is a journey for ALL of us and at every stage there is something to learn.
Now, some of us have a bit of practical experience, some have less, some have lots BUT in the end, we all learn from each other.
Opinion vary BUT they all should be based on SOMETHING and that something SHOULD be practical hands on experience ( we are talking about MA after all and MA is about DOING something and that thing is fighting).
Heck, I can see Buakaw and still be critical of him dropping his left hand and not punching as well as he could ( even though he is one to the top level MT fighters EVER).
Can I punch better than Buakaw?
Irrelevant if my observation is correct, it WOULD be relevant if I DO say that I can do better.

We need to distinguish between honest critique and "my WC ***** is bigger than yours" crap.

[GlennR]

Heck, I can see Buakaw and still be critical of him dropping his left hand and not punching as well as he could ( even though he is one to the top level MT fighters EVER).
Can I punch better than Buakaw?
Irrelevant if my observation is correct, it WOULD be relevant if I DO say that I can do better.

We need to distinguish between honest critique and "my WC ***** is bigger than yours" crap

Exactly. And your critique of a certain clip shouldnt then be turned into a "you dont know what youre looking at" response.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1174256]And if more WC people did it, then chi sao would be put into its proper perspective as the simple drill that it is and NOT what WC is all about.[/QUOTE
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I have enjoyed watching clips in this and other threads and You tube.But when we refer to something called "chi sao" there is hardly any consistency in the meaning of the term. Lots of noise is
the predominant thing.... including "what WC is all about.

[Mutant]

Chi Sao is just a loose term that encompasses different types of interactive training. There are many different variations of chi sao with different parts of limbs, ranges, intent and energies. working on different aspects. I thought Alan's video clip was cool and showed skill in what they were working on.

Some seem to have concept that chi sao is this one drill set with one set range, volume of play and type of energy interaction... I guess they'd be right within the context of their own practice and version of WC, but that's not the whole picture in my experience. The snake can engage and bridge further out where they can bite and sting, but they can also come in, shift angle of the centerline, wrap up suffocate and break down the opponent. Seamless shift controlling limbs/busting joints/striking/collapsing the structure. WC certainly has some kam na. And most certainly doesnt have to be all light and neutral interaction. But its obviously not full sparring or a substitute for full contact total pressure sparring or fighting. Take it for what its worth, its a great type of drill within the WC system, but some need to open their minds a bit or its a complete waste of time and backslide into pedantic wasteland.

[LoneTiger108]

Chi Sao is just a loose term that encompasses different types of interactive training. There are many different variations of chi sao with different parts of limbs, ranges, intent and energies. working on different aspects. I thought Alan's video clip was cool and showed skill in what they were working on.

Agreed.

I have been trying to put this point across for many years now! More importantly, every single Martial Art has their preferences when it comes to interactive training and/or drilling. It is a common word and platform we can all use but once you go into specifics, like Chisau, then let's get specific about the true purpose and nature of the training. And of you can't even start dialogue on the distinct differences involved from, let's say poonsau and looksau, sansau or gorsau, then what are you really trying to train?

This is actually what I like about Alans stuff. He is open and honest with what he is developing and teaching, and it works in the environment he and his students thrive in. Pretty successful in competition too, but I think that's more to do with his attitude to overall training for the fight.