What is qi?

[Scott R. Brown]

Unless of course we are talking about a real physical thing that we can easily measure. But these guys avoid that possibility like the plague

Most people want tangible proof. You cannot blame anyone for wanting proof. We live in a world of charlatans who take advantage of others for money, status and fame.

Almost all of the effects attributed to Qi may be explained using already known and understood physiological processes.

I personally take an agnostic perspective, I accept the possibility of its existence, but so far the evidence is very under-whelming in its support and as I have stated numerous times already, its effects do not come anywhere near the advantages gained using other systems of training.

Qigong is good for health, but it is not the only method that provides the same effects. it may or may not help with spiritual development, but it is not the only method that provides the same effects.

Qigong is extremely under-whelming when it comes to develping the ability to be an exceptional fighter. This is very well demonstrated any time one watches a good MMA fight, fencing bout, boxing match, or any of the various forms of wrestling around the world. You NEVER see any qigong user, much less master, succeed in any of these competitions. Even if one or two did, it would still be ONLY one or two in all the history of fighting. The only thing qigong practitioners have to back them up is imaginary legends and this is NOT proof since the legendary feats have not been repeated in modern times!

This is why qigong is laughed at! It makes wild claims that cannot be substantiated in the REAL world. This gives strong evidence that its practitioners are living in the land of make believe.

[Robinhood]

Just because someone has different experiences than you, or interprets their experiences differently from you does not mean they do not know what you are talking about.

He probably knows a lot more than you.

That does not invalidate your experiences, but your interpretation of your experiences are clearly incomplete to those of use that have a broader perspective on the subject.

No, he said he hasn't had or seen for himself. Which is normal if you haven't cultivated your chi.

It is not a trick or an authoritative thing, you just recognize it and can show people the difference between flow and blocked flow, simple as that. No believing praying or priest stuff like you keep referencing.

[Robinhood]

Most people want tangible proof. You cannot blame anyone for wanting proof. We live in a world of charlatans who take advantage of others for money, status and fame.

Almost all of the effects attributed to Qi may be explained using already known and understood physiological processes.

I personally take an agnostic perspective, I accept the possibility of its existence, but so far the evidence is very under-whelming in its support and as I have stated numerous times already, its effects do not come anywhere near the advantages gained using other systems of training.

Qigong is good for health, but it is not the only method that provides the same effects. it may or may not help with spiritual development, but it is not the only method that provides the same effects.

Qigong is extremely under-whelming when it comes to develping the ability to be an exceptional fighter. This is very well demonstrated any time one watches a good MMA fight, fencing bout, boxing match, or any of the various forms of wrestling around the world. You NEVER see any qigong user, much less master, succeed in any of these competitions. Even if one or two did, it would still be ONLY one or two in all the history of fighting. The only thing qigong practitioners have to back them up is imaginary legends and this is NOT proof since the legendary feats have not been repeated in modern times!

This is why qigong is laughed at! It makes wild claims that cannot be substantiated in the REAL world. This gives strong evidence that its practitioners are living in the land of make believe.

With your attitude it is no wonder that no one has shown you the benefit of chi development. I always show people first hand, with chi then without chi, or the other way around, doesn't matter, so they know what chi will do for them.

If someone does not see the benefit of chi, why would they practice to get it ?

[Matthew]

Probably the interaction of qi with what we know so far of the physical reality mostly in terms of electromagnetism is the first clue in uncovering the truth about what can be sensed and seen through meditation and inner cultivation.

I think that aligns (at least in part) with Yang Jwing Ming and some other modern-western educated qigong practitioners.

Also- Really want to thank you for your post on Chinese language and interpretation of DaoDe Jing and ancient Chinese text. I'm only a few years into Chinese study and yet so many years away from having even foundational historical literary/contextual understandings enough to try and read such a text.

Even a single character we might read could have a myriad of meanings. That is beyond the fact that most chinese characters are never seen alone- only compounding the innate difficulty (and near impossibility IMO) of practical translations.

I'm not too concerned about a scientifically derived understanding of Qi- although it might be nice in proving its efficacy and bringing interest to wider audience. IMO such an understanding might not be much help in cultivating anyway.

[Scott R. Brown]

No, he said he hasn't had or seen for himself. Which is normal if you haven't cultivated your chi.

It is not a trick or an authoritative thing, you just recognize it and can show people the difference between flow and blocked flow, simple as that. No believing praying or priest stuff like you keep referencing.

With your attitude it is no wonder that no one has shown you the benefit of chi development. I always show people first hand, with chi then without chi, or the other way around, doesn't matter, so they know what chi will do for them.

If someone does not see the benefit of chi, why would they practice to get it ?

At first I thought you just had a different perspective, so I treated you accordingly, but I can see now you truly are as dumb as a door!

[wenshu]

Qi is not an abstract idea and is something that can be sensed and seen usually by a few months to a few years of training depending on the person. First of all there should be a collaboration between scientists and high level qigong practitioners so that they can design proper tests to show that what they see is not a subjective or imaginary experience( as I said before I have successfully done this part). After that they can start investigating what exactly it is that these people see and how it can affect the known physical world.

What? Explain to me how you measure qi? Or even point to a specific definition of qi in this context.

Something can be sensed, all that means is that there is a sensation and the reason there hasn't been more in depth scientific research into it is because it doesn't get past the fact that all of those sensations can be explained easily within the context of well understood autonomic function.

[Matthew]

also, think about the origins of qigong: how did it first come about? someone had to derive the approach, right? someone had to articulate it first; well, how did they come up with it? no one taught it to them, they derived it "naturally"

certain Taoist texts talk about qigong as being a "corruption"; in the Chuang Tzu it's stated that "the natural man breathes straight down to his heels";

Please elaborate- actually can you quote the text in question?

In Chinese please, because I never heard of anything about the Natural Man and so I question your understanding of the idea that qigong is a corruption.

If you are talking about 真人 breathing to heels, from my reading and understanding it is more implying a cultivated/transformed man, which would be counter to your implication that qigong was a corruption.

Again, I'm only a few years into Chinese study and interested to learn more as far as ancient texts are concerned.

if we look a the root of qigong, we find Taoist shamanic practice; shamanism evolved out of the intuitive / instinctual relationship that humans had with their environment before the human mind became dominated by the neo-cortex, that is, before the primacy of abstraction / symbolic thought; in other words, we used to "do" qigong 'naturally" when we lived in a state of relative non-differentiation - before we developed the cortical apparatus that resulted in hierarchical / dialectical thinking

It's interesting to look at where things came from, but it seems a stretch to imply that all ancient people naturally did qigong without organizing expedient methods of cultivating Qi.

otherwise I don't think we wouldn't see texts/methods of cultivating Qi from ancient times.

Although I partially agree, they did it more naturally. Waking up with the sun, eating unprocessed foods, not sitting around in idle on computers, TV, etc, doing work outdoors, having a generally simple life would absolutely help in cultivating. This is a good reason people take vacations, breaks, etc

I'm also interested in more about the differences in brain development between Chinese and others who use language in a literal fashion (such as letters/words/sentences) rather than symbols which have conceptual meaning that can have varied interpretations/ideas.

so if u want to really cultivate, following a formulaic approach can b useful, but ultimately it's a fabrication; the point of it is "expedient means" -

That's why it's so important to have a good teacher. Formulaic approaches address universal audiences and may not be the most expedient in fact. A good teacher can deem both where you are at currently, and how you can improve that.

[Hendrik]

If you are talking about 真人 breathing to heels, from my reading and understanding it is more implying a cultivated/transformed man, which would be counter to your implication that qigong was a corruption.------------


Heel breathing just mean a type of deep breathing which accord with the spine natural movement. One doesn't have to be cultivate man to practice it. In fact one practice it to cultivate.




Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn
also, think about the origins of qigong: how did it first come about? someone had to derive the approach, right? someone had to articulate it first; well, how did they come up with it? no one taught it to them, they derived it "naturally"

certain Taoist texts talk about qigong as being a "corruption"; in the Chuang Tzu it's stated that "the natural man breathes straight down to his heels";---------------------



Btw, qigong is modern term coin by Liu GUI Jen in the 1950 of communist china. There is no such term in ancient china text. So, this qigong term is a great test to see if one is really study qigong in depth.

[taai gihk yahn]

It is just a level reached from building chi, if you can't see it or don't think it is real, you have not reached this level yet, no reason to get all bent out of shape, if you find the right teacher and put in the right practice, someday you might get to this level.

But if you keep your know it all attitude , you probably won't.

you misunderstand - I have "seen it", I used to "use it" with patients; I then realized what it was, as well as it's limitations and the intrinsic self-delusory aspect thereof; I used to be like you; I moved on; your problem is that you are too comfortable, thinking that you can do that, when in fact it's a fiction; unfortunately, you have no objective methodology against which to rebalance your delusory notions of what you think that you are doing;

I'm not saying you don't see things, and I'm not saying that what you see doesn't correlate to something that's actually there - it's just that what you think you are seeing isn't really what you are seeing; and since you have no objective methodology against which to compare it, you have no capacity to move beyond it;

the biggest clue, the one that you are missing, are your feelings of satisfaction and certainty; these are the most dangerous things imaginable; but since you don't treat people professionally, you can enjoy your amateur status without having to worry about it;

I don't "know it all"; however, based on my personal and professional experiences, i know a heck of a lot more than you do;

[Hendrik]

What? Explain to me how you measure qi? Or even point to a specific definition of qi in this context.

Something can be sensed, all that means is that there is a sensation and the reason there hasn't been more in depth scientific research into it is because it doesn't get past the fact that all of those sensations can be explained easily within the context of well understood autonomic function.

Qi is a human body chemical reaction. It can be measured , what it needs is only a few good scientists with a good heart, a good lab working for shake of working , no politics, no money making agenda, no racism, no self promote agenda.

[taai gihk yahn]

At first I thought you just had a different perspective, so I treated you accordingly, but I can see now you truly are as dumb as a door!

he's just stuck at the phenomenal stage, and unfortunately, because he doesn't practice healing in a professional context, he thinks his perception of "qi blockages" are something other than his eye being guided to certain aspects of posture and habitus - he is being drawn to certain things that are there - like watching a river and being drawn to where the rocks stick up; but he then inappropriately extrapolates this perceptual experience to something delusory; if he were actively treating people hands-on, he would at least have a chance to understand his misunderstanding, but he doesn't, so he won't be able to;

[Hendrik]

you misunderstand - I have "seen it", I used to "use it" with patients; I then realized what it was, as well as it's limitations and the intrinsic self-delusory aspect thereof; I used to be like you; I moved on; your problem is that you are too comfortable, thinking that you can do that, when in fact it's a fiction; unfortunately, you have no objective methodology against which to rebalance your delusory notions of what you think that you are doing;

I'm not saying you don't see things, and I'm not saying that what you see doesn't correlate to something that's actually there - it's just that what you think you are seeing isn't really what you are seeing; and since you have no objective methodology against which to compare it, you have no capacity to move beyond it;

the biggest clue, the one that you are missing, are your feelings of satisfaction and certainty; these are the most dangerous things imaginable; but since you don't treat people professionally, you can enjoy your amateur status without having to worry about it;

I don't "know it all"; however, based on my personal and professional experiences, i know a heck of a lot more than you do;

So, please share, do one needs to control the temperature of the zhen qi? If yes, why, how, and to what degree or how can one knows it is proper?

[taai gihk yahn]

Qi is a human body chemical reaction. It can be measured , what it needs is only a few good scientists with a good heart, a good lab working for shake of working , no politics, no money making agenda, no racism, no self promote agenda.

if "qi" is a human body chemical reaction, then that is what you will measure: chemical reactions; so why not just talk about the chemical reaction? if you can describe it in these cornet terms, then no need to talk about "qi" at all;

[taai gihk yahn]

So, please share, do one needs to control the temperature of the zhen qi? If yes, why, how, and to what degree or how can one knows it is proper?

you really just get stuck on this one thing, and don't even realize how irrelevant it is

[Hendrik]

if "qi" is a human body chemical reaction, then that is what you will measure: chemical reactions; so why not just talk about the chemical reaction? if you can describe it in these cornet terms, then no need to talk about "qi" at all;

It is similar to charging a battery , there is chemistry, physical, electical quantity.

In fact most people doesn't know what it is. And those who knows what it is , no one wants to listen.