Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Syn7]

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d...feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

About 6:40 he does a ground dragon form.

No doubt he has put in some time. In the first form he seemed "shakey" on the slower high kicks and a few of the other higher flexibility/strength movements. Regardless of how well or how poorly the forms are performed, I wouldn't use them in combat. The Dragon form was more wushu than actual combat effectiveness. Clearly meant to impress the type of person who equates acrobatic ability and flexibility with actual combat effectiveness. I have the same criticism with B-Boys. Crowds love the g@y sh1t that isn't really even dancing and get bored when they see real footwork. While the educated drool over a nice set, average folks just wanna see dudes spin on their head and do handsprings. C'est la vie
Many, if not all, arts have this problem.

The beginning of his dragon form reminded me of how B-Boys look when they are learning. They are getting it but just aren't there yet. Like at a low intermediate level looking to move into the higher intermediate ranks. The truly fresh B-Boys look smooth all the time. They are so good that even when they fukc up they make it look dope like it was their plan all along. Recovery is one of the most important aspects. To stand there and try to remember what comes next is considered rookie sh1t and I have seen Sin The do that.

But this guy is a black belt and was the sponsor of the tourney. Probably runs a school, right? I just expect more from somebody who calls themselves an expert or master. Cleaner transitions, solid flowing movements etc. You can find children doing better acrobatic "shaolin" forms on youtube.

I wish my Sifu was the type of guy who lets others film him. Alas, he is beyond humble and only really gets loose behind closed doors. Once accepted as a student, it's just a matter of time before he does something to make you do the open mouthed double take. On the street you would think he's a harmless little man with a confident friendly disposition. He doesn't make bullsh1t claims because he doesn't make any claims at all. There are no d1ck enlarging stories of greatness. No insecure lies in an attempt for legitimacy and consumer appeal. Take it or leave it. He runs the school at a loss cause he loves Kung Fu and wants to help anyone he can. He is not unique, by any means. There are tons of Teachers like him. Just depends on the research.

[Leto]

Ok, for anyone who hasn't seen it but wants a comparison to what we were taught in SD/CSC, here's the complete five animal form by DFW. It's not listed on youtube, you can only get there by the link.
This is commercially available, so anyone could see it if they wanted to, and it is only five minutes of a fifty minute instructional video. I'm not giving away some precious secret, DFW did that, I just bought the DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpt__6sH8tU


I also wonder if songshan shaolin students can recognize any linking elements between this supposedly shaolin form and the other northern styles. Apart from the name, do you think it connects in any way with the wu xing ba fa set? How does this or wu xing ba fa connect with the older shaolin styles, if they do?

[kwaichang]

Just for the fun of it , The legend of Mok Gar is it was developed by a Midget Monk named Mok Da Si, at the Southern Shaolin Temple which wasnt supposed to have existed. So if there was a Midget Monk there perhaps there was a Hairy one too? KC

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZhtKOYkyjQ

Thank-you! That's the first time I've seen this form outside of SD. Is this from the Indonesia trip?

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCcMY...feature=relmfu

This is our beginner level Dao form. I'm assuming that these videos are from the 1992 Indonesia trip where SD people trained and demonstrated with the students from the school that remained in Bangdung. Regardless, I learved this form before this video was taken and it has been a staple in SD curriculim for several years.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MpzY...feature=relmfu

Don't know this form, but the circular blocks and footwork are familiar to other SD forms that I do know. But check out what the guy is wearing: Barefoot. Karate Belt. Sam top. Talk about mish-mash.

Looks like kung tao to me.

[shen ku]

I love these vids, yes theseare of the style that SD does

[kwaichang]

Can you guys down load them a different way ? My computer wont allow it to be seen ? Thanks KC

[RJ797]

i know the fut gar characters. however, what he is doing isn't what i know to be fut gar. this form must be something he made up and put the fut gar name on it.

so lets entertain this. now SD ALSO TEACHES FUT GAR KUEN? YOU KNOW ITS SO HARD TO SWALLOW KNOWING YOU GUYS PRACTICE FORMS FROM OTHER SYSTEMS BUT YOU HAVE NO DIRECT CONNECTION TO ANY OF THEM. NO LINEAGE. SO HOW DOES YOUR SCHOOL GET A HOLD OF THESE FORMS?

It seems every-time someone sees a from that was assimilated by SD in some way they claim it was made up. This particular form was discussed on rumsoakedfist a couple of years back. Check out what Sal Canzonieri said about it. http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...sk=t&sd=a&hili

[Judge Pen]

It seems every-time someone sees a from that was assimilated by SD in some way they claim it was made up. This particular form was discussed on rumsoakedfist a couple of years back. Check out what Sal Canzonieri said about it. http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...sk=t&sd=a&hili

"Not that I want to ever defend Sin The's stuff, but I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever. They most have this confused.

It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."

Well it is obviously practiced in Indonesia by Sin The's old school. and taught in America by The as early as 1974.

[Judge Pen]

and "what SD is", in my estimation, is a combination of 3 things: stuff Sin The actually learned back in Indonesia (which was probably a mix of stuff from China, Japan and Indonesia); stuff he took from books / tapes and co-opted wholesale; stuff he "made up" based on what he thought people wanted and their ignorance of what TCMA really is;

all of which is fine, as long as one is honest about it (for example, the sword form I linked to, I made it up); the problem is when u fabricate a lineage / origin story (and it's a brilliant one - the more implausible something seems, the more peope are willing to buy it - PT Barnum would have been proud!) and ascribe content dishonestly to a given source; that just means you are a cynical jerk, preying on people's credulous simplicities (I can't help but picture Sin The chuckling to himself about how his students will believe just any old thing he says / does; altho, at this point, he may actually believe his own schtick - in the words of the great George Costanza, "it's not a lie if you believe it's the truth";

one way (of many) to tell is the names of the forms: they sound "kung fu-ish", but are actually names you never find elsewhere in legitimate TCMA - for example, "ground dragon" is ridiculous - there is no such thing as a ground dragon in Chinese mythos - dragons fly or swim, they are celestial creatures - they don't walk / crawl on the floor - that's what snakes do (also, there is nothing in that form that characterizes dragon, but that's neither here nor there);

as for the Buddha fist set being "internal" - it's all wrong - there's nothing in that form that relates to classical 'internal' practice at all - just doing moves slowly and sticking your leg out at odd angles and holding it there and them coming into some crossed leg stances doesn't make it internal; internal practice has very specific aspects, and that form doesn't fulfill a single one;

it's fraud guys, pure and simple;

I linked to those two forms because there's independant evidence that these two forms are still being taught, independant of Sin The, in Indonesia. The videos of Indonesian students doing these same forms are on the SD thread. Also another poster linked to another forum where Sal Calzone (sorry I butchered the spelling) indicated that he has seen the same Buddha Fist form practiced in a Chinese lineage that is independant from Sin The.

"Not that I want to ever defend Sin The's stuff, but I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever. They most have this confused.

It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."

So at least these two forms seem to have some legitimate history and lineage (even if it's not exactly what is told by Sin The).

[Judge Pen]

and "what SD is", in my estimation, is a combination of 3 things: stuff Sin The actually learned back in Indonesia (which was probably a mix of stuff from China, Japan and Indonesia); stuff he took from books / tapes and co-opted wholesale; stuff he "made up" based on what he thought people wanted and their ignorance of what TCMA really is;

I agree with this 100%. That is what I tell people I learned and I'm trying to sort out what was the stuff he learned in Indonesia and what he made up. I can't go back in time and unlearn material nor can I invest all that time in a new style. So I will keep up some of the material that I learned and just be honest with myself regarding the origins.

[RJ797]

It was not taught by Sin The until after Garry Mullins took it off the videotape of the 1992 demo in Bandung. When asked back in 1992 what the form was Sin The did not know what it was and eventually said it was a Buddha Fist form which is why there has been confusion about the name. After seeing Garry Mullins do the form in a demo Sin The decided to take it off the video like Garry had and teach it out. No one had every seen or demonstrated that form before 1992.

[Crushing Step]

Yes I was an SD guy for over 20 years and I defended it as much as anyone can. I still defend many aspects of it...

Thanks for the reply JP!

[Judge Pen]

It was not taught by Sin The until after Garry Mullins took it off the videotape of the 1992 demo in Bandung. When asked back in 1992 what the form was Sin The did not know what it was and eventually said it was a Buddha Fist form which is why there has been confusion about the name. After seeing Garry Mullins do the form in a demo Sin The decided to take it off the video like Garry had and teach it out. No one had every seen or demonstrated that form before 1992.

Not according to OTD who posted here that he learned the form in 1974. Of course OTD could be lying about that.