I Give Up Kung Fu is lost

[bawang]

its not that shuai jiao has non chinese influence. its that no chinese had ever been allowed to train or watch manchu buku until 1911. then republic government in 1920s renamed it shuai jiao.

chinese were forbidden by LAW from wrestling

[wiz cool c]

f) PRC - under the Communists it was against the rules to do applications, so a lot of them probably don't know the applications. But with the Chinese (and Eastern) culture of saving face, they'd probably never admit they didn't know the applications, so it's a sticky issue.

i think this is the main reason,i also believe strongly that the teachers have a bit of a fear that they might be challenged by their student,specially foreigners like myself

[MysteriousPower]

Uygurs, Kazakh and Mongols have more developed grappling. They are good at wrestling because they do it every day, not just for sport, to wrangle sheep. They are ranchers.

Traditional Chinese martial arts have a different way of thinking than shuai chiao. Later many Chinese arts like 8 step mantis incorporated shuai chiao, but actually it was redundant. The key is that shuai chiao has superior training and continuations for body controls. Sure, the concepts are already there, but the specific training from shuai chiao makes people more effective at grappling.

Can you elaborate on that second paragraph? What does chimes wrestling offer in terms of superior(your words, not mine) training methods and why does it make you a better grappler? Would not any grappling system make you a better grappler?

[wenshu]

sounds like you cant accept you learned mongolian barbarian wrestling.

Mongol, Chinese, Manchu, who cares? It's all the same.

You don't make the butsecks with unwilling partners cause it's Chinese, you do it cause it's fun.

I'm not Chinese, I don't give a shit about blindly adhering to notions of Chinese racial purity (a notion which represent weakness in the first place). Especially when it comes to the butsecks.

[bawang]

Mongol, Chinese, Manchu, who cares? It's all the same.

You don't make the butsecks with unwilling partners cause it's Chinese, you do it cause it's fun.

I'm not Chinese, I don't give a shit about blindly adhering to notions of Chinese racial purity (a notion which represent weakness in the first place). Especially when it comes to the butsecks.

does that mean you will let us have tibet

[ginosifu]

300 years ago chinese wrestling is exactly the same as it is today. its called shaanxi wrestling.

in modern sense, shuai jiao is chinese wrestling because republican government in 1920s said so. in traditional sense, buku has nothing to do with chinese martial arts.

its not that shuai jiao has non chinese influence. its that no chinese had ever been allowed to train or watch manchu buku until 1911. then republic government in 1920s renamed it shuai jiao.

chinese were forbidden by LAW from wrestling

I do Bao Ding / 保 定 Shuai Jiao. Bao Ding Shuai Jiao's history goes back before 1911. Bao Ding Shuai Jiao proves you wrong just because the style is different than ShaanXi wrestling. It has more throws like mongoilian style but still conforms to Chinese wrestling.

ginosifu

[bawang]

baoding buku comes from 2 mongol brothers who taught it to muslim dongans.

[Faruq]

I know people in China who have never seen an MMA bout who can dislocate other people's knees with every step. They come from living systems and simply trained at they were taught. Most were taught as kids and they trained for much less time than we do, but have a much deeper skill set.

The tragedy in America is that people with dead systems practice fantasy religiously and people with living systems buy into the American hype and lose what is in their hands.

What is this, knee dislocation? With kicks to the other guy's knee? This is really interesting. What is this kind of training called. Was it just some self defense course they had in grammar school, or did like a uncle who was also a shifu just happen to teach the 5 or 6 really good techniques over like a year period when they were kids and they just always kept those techniques in practice? Man, I gotta find a way to get outta the U.S. every so often so I can get a more realistic look at the world, lol.

[YouKnowWho]

Traditional Chinese martial arts have a different way of thinking than shuai chiao.

This statement is absolute true. TCMA doesn't try to build technique one at a time like SC does (such as single leg, hip throw, ...). They try to develop many techniques at the same time.

[YouKnowWho]

What is this, knee dislocation? With kicks to the other guy's knee? This is really interesting. What is this kind of training called.

"Shin bite" will be a good example for this. If you train with partner back and forth, your leg can sense the correct angle, pressure, footwork, ... in very little time.

[Faruq]

Interesting answers. Thanks, guys. Too many possible legal ramifications to learning bone setting in the U.S. I guess, lol. Oh well... But based on Andy Miles' description, everyone would probably know how to counter the knee dislocation kicks as well then, right?

[Kellen Bassette]

sounds like you cant accept you learned mongolian barbarian wrestling.

Is there any historical proof that Shuai Jiao came from Mongolian folk wrestling?

It makes sense that there would be cross pollination in Inner Mongolia/North China and many Asian M.A. trace back to common ancestors...but...the two arts do not look much alike as they exist now. Not even superficially.

It seems like it would be as difficult to confuse Mongolian Wrestling with Shuai Jiao, as it would to confuse Long Fist with Tae Kwon Do.

You don't consider them different arts?

[bawang]

silence, woman.

[Lucas]

Long Kwon Fist Do?

[Kellen Bassette]

silence, woman.

Hey I'm a big fan of the Mongol Empire...I'm not attacking your position, I'm asking how you arrived at it. Is there more to why you hold this opinion, or are you being contrary for the sake of it?