Bruce Lee

[GlennR]

I don't disagree.

If I didn't have the sparring experience I had, I'd likely be dead or crippled. And I've seen plenty of traditionalists who after years of poor, unrealistic training, couldn't defend themselves for anything. As a teacher, I've had people come in who had been training for 10+ years in another traditional style school, and while their forms were not bad, 3 month students wiped the floor with them in sparring. It was embarrassing to watch.

Ive had almost identical experiences

My thing is that still, sparring is not fighting. People who have experienced that reality will be more prepared to deal with it again, no matter what sort of official record one has from sport competitions. And that is not a prerequisite to being a good fighter.

My thoughts would be in regards to street is that you arent a good fighter, youre a good survivor.

Things to do in training to prepare for street survival would be setting up more realistic scenarios than sparring in a ring. Going outside to the alleyway. Being cornered and attacked by more than one opponent using more than fists and feet. You may get "killed" several times in the process, but that is far more useful of an experience than 1on1 in the ring with a ref, timer, etc..

Personally, i think you need both.
The one good thing about sparring with pads etc is you get to throw big shots etc, harder to do unpadded in an alley trying to get awareness etc.

So ill agree with you but i believe you need hard sparring AS WELL .

[LFJ]

The one good thing about sparring with pads etc is you get to throw big shots etc, harder to do unpadded in an alley trying to get awareness etc.

You can do padded in an alley too! That's kind of what I meant, to make it as realistic as possible you have to be able to throw big.

So ill agree with you but i believe you need hard sparring AS WELL .

Then we agree all around. I never meant to say regular sparring doesn't have it's place.

[GlennR]

You can do padded in an alley too! That's kind of what I meant, to make it as realistic as possible you have to be able to throw big.



Then we agree all around. I never meant to say regular sparring doesn't have it's place.

Glad to see we finally see eye to eye

[LFJ]

I don't think we actually didn't see eye to eye on this. I just thought you shared the same viewpoint as Bacon with regards to who is and isn't a fighter based on whether or not they are a sport fighting athlete with an official record, regardless of whether they actually fight. He may not be a Bruce Lee nuthugger, but he just exchanged Bruce with MMAs.

[Bacon]

I don't think we actually didn't see eye to eye on this. I just thought you shared the same viewpoint as Bacon with regards to who is and isn't a fighter based on whether or not they are a sport fighting athlete with an official record, regardless of whether they actually fight. He may not be a Bruce Lee nuthugger, but he just exchanged Bruce with MMAs.

Nope not at all. It has nothing to do with nuthugging any fighting ruleset like MMA, or any style, or individual. It's about verifiable proof of having fought skilled opponents. For example Kimbo slice may have had plenty of street fighting experience. He beat a lot of big dudes but when taken into the ring he got his butt handed to him by people who fought skilled opponents on a regular basis. That's what happens. That's why even though he had verifiable proof of having fought those fights they don't matter for anything.

Now if you had video proof of beating up Randy Couture, Muhammed Ali, Chuck Liddell, Bill Wallace, Rickson Gracie, or anyone of their caliber in street fights then I'd take you seriously, and essentially that's what Vale Tudo was/is. But sad hand-me-down stories about having been in street fights with no name nobodies AND no evidence to back it up, doesn't mean squat and that's all Bruce ever had.

Helio Grace as an example may have had stories about street fighting in Brazil but he also had proof of his skill as evidenced by lasting in a match with Kimura.

[GlennR]

Helio Grace as an example may have had stories about street fighting in Brazil but he also had proof of his skill as evidenced by lasting in a match with Kimura.

Thats a good point actually, Helio had that defining fight ,to put him on the map so to speak, after which his skill was undeniable.

[anerlich]

Id like to agree with you, but there seems to be a few that want to see something thats not there...... an unbeatable killing machine who had profound wisdom in all things combat

That's probably true. OTOH there seem to be a few who feel that putting down high-profile people in MA somehow makes them feel or sound worldly and sophisticated. I wouldn't put all the naysayers in that category, but some on this thread, definitely.

One doesn't have to be a fighter to get kudos as a trainer in boxing ... only in TCMA, where paradoxically very few trainers actually fight except in long ago unverifiable street encounters. Everyone seems to demand battle-hardened TCMA trainers who, with few exceptions, in reality don't exist.

My WC instructor had 37 pro and over 100 amateur ring fights. My BJJ instructor gold medalled in masters BJJ in Brazil and fought pro shooto in Japan in the 90's.

IMO it's not their fighting experience, but their love for their respective arts and their decades of teaching experience that makes them top notch instructors.

[GlennR]

That's probably true. OTOH there seem to be a few who feel that putting down high-profile people in MA somehow makes them feel or sound worldly and sophisticated. I wouldn't put all the naysayers in that category, but some on this thread, definitely.

For sure. Its exactly like the Tyson thing in boxing with "experts" saying he was a rubbish heavyweight and wouldnt have made the top 50. All very fashionable now to tow that line and it seems the same with the BL thing.

One doesn't have to be a fighter to get kudos as a trainer in boxing ... only in TCMA, where paradoxically very few trainers actually fight except in long ago unverifiable street encounters. Everyone seems to demand battle-hardened TCMA trainers who, with few exceptions, in reality don't exist.

Exactly, but its the BS created by some of these instructors (and subsequently their students) that seems to paint everyone with the same brush

My WC instructor had 37 pro and over 100 amateur ring fights. My BJJ instructor gold medalled in masters BJJ in Brazil and fought pro shooto in Japan in the 90's.

IMO it's not their fighting experience, but their love for their respective arts and their decades of teaching experience that makes them top notch instructors.

Though im sure their odd fight or two didnt hurt their ability to instruct

[Bacon]

For sure. Its exactly like the Tyson thing in boxing with "experts" saying he was a rubbish heavyweight and wouldnt have made the top 50. All very fashionable now to tow that line and it seems the same with the BL thing.

Apples and oranges. Tyson retired with a pro record of 50-6-0. Remind me what Bruce's record was and name some notable people he fought.

And FYI it's "toe the line"

[anerlich]

Though im sure their odd fight or two didnt hurt their ability to instruct

No indeed, though I would also say fighting experience alone doesn't make one a good instructor.

Apples and oranges.

As regards fighters with records and other martial artists, you could perhaps say that.

As regards armchair critics rubbishing famous achievers, no.

[GlennR]

Apples and oranges. Tyson retired with a pro record of 50-6-0. Remind me what Bruce's record was and name some notable people he fought.

And FYI it's "toe the line"

Honestly, try reading the context of the conversation.

My point was that it becomes fashionable to bash people with any fame, regardless of their achievements, and used Tyson as an example.

[Bacon]

Honestly, try reading the context of the conversation.

My point was that it becomes fashionable to bash people with any fame, regardless of their achievements, and used Tyson as an example.

Bruce had no achievements as a fighter.

[GlennR]

Bruce had no achievements as a fighter.

Thanks Sherlock!!

[Bacon]

Thanks Sherlock!!

Good then I expect you see why Tyson/Lee is a terrible comparison.

[GlennR]

Good then I expect you see why Tyson/Lee is a terrible comparison.

Here you go then, a word that might help you

zeal·ot (zlt)
n.
1.
a. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.
b. A fanatically committed person.

Id suggest you with your anti BL rehetoric, and the anti-tyson mob, would have the above word in common

Both just a little bit too obsessed in making their point.