What was known about Shaolin Kung Fu prior to the 20th century?

[RenDaHai]

Why can't you guys show me a 18th/19th century map of Henan showing all these villages intact? If I had to prove the existence of buildings in my country several hundred years ago then it would be **** simple for me to do so..

Falkor, come on now, this is really stupid.

I have actually been to the nearby villages. There are often old buildings in them. Old temples (there are MANY temples nearby the Shaolin temple, both on a level, above and below, its a mountain). I mean, they didn't build some of these places recently.

Go to google maps

Type in this;

shaolin si, dengfeng, henan, china

Then look to the WEST of the temple. ALL mountain. Many villages. Those names, Tangou, BaiYunCun etc. these are all the names of villages. They are deep in the mountain. They are hard to get to by road, easier by walking from Shaolin. It is faster to walk from the temple to BaiYunCun then to take busses. I know this because I have done it. Look at the scale, all these places are within a few miles. Easy walking distance.

SO deep in the mountain, what commercial appeal could start a village there? On the road to the EAST of SHaolin I could see the appeal, but to the west too?

How do you explain the ancient buildings in these towns? A lot was destroyed in the revolution but some remains and it is undeniable.

[Scott R. Brown]

Why can't you guys show me a 18th/19th century map of Henan showing all these villages intact? If I had to prove the existence of buildings in my country several hundred years ago then it would be **** simple for me to do so. Those villages have only grown up around the temple due to it's modern day commercial appeal. That's why Tai Chi was developed in a village more spaced apart, at 35 miles away. Everyone knows that villages are never joined together, and no sources talk about a complex of village buildings surrounding the temple. Even natives will not be permitted inside certain public buildings unless they are some kind of member (I use the word in the broadest sense).

As you can see, from the many post between this post and your post, is not that there are not any maps for you to see. It is that you have unrealistic expectations of the kinds of proof historical documents can and/or do provide.

Maps? Are you kidding me? You think 200 years ago, or even further back in time, the whole world was mapped?

Maps were very rare and very unreliable. The "show me" or it didn't happen attitude can't apply to history.

From your posts, it appears you have one main source you base your fantasies on. Shababdabadoo may be a fine scholar. He may be a respected scholar. But that does not make him correct and it does not mean his sources are correct. He may be partially correct or not and you would never know.
History is not an exact science. It involves assumption, extrapolation, speculation and out right guessing.

The quality of written source material is determined by the writer's skill in writing, education, memory (which known to be notoriously inaccurate), temperament, the amount of time he takes to write, who he is writing for, how long after events he is writing, his personal integrity........ etc.


Just because someone wrote something in a book does not make it so, sometimes it is not even probable. Other times further information discovered or other information not considered negates the claims or conclusions an author writes.

History is not an exact science........ it is your expectation of certainty that is your error.

[falkor]

From someone who has obviously never been to these villages and doesn't know what kind of place he's talking about...

They've grown up? Because of commercial appeal?

Get real.

How Shaolin Temple, it's villages and Kung Fu appear now (or to the previous generation) has no bearing on history or how they were in the pre-20th century. What were the Shaolin monks learning at the temple besides Hong Quan, 8 Drunken Immortals and Mizongyi? How comes Choy Li Fat, Wing Chun have similarities to the north? Some styles have obviously been lost from Song Shan and there have been migrations in the past and gaps in martial arts training at the temple due to upheavals.

Some of the things RenDaHai are telling me seem totally inaccurate. His categorisation of Wushu and different classes taught at Shaolin doesn't seem correct. The description of "performance" and how southern animals came to be featured seems like wild speculation. You guys keep telling me "Hong Quan", "Hong Chuan Quan" and "Chuantong", but all my sources are telling me this style is called CHANG QUAN (LONG FIST):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changquan

I didn't put up any posters for Jet Li's Shaolin Temple; I uploaded the PRESSBOOK. Not trying to split-hairs or anything, but there is a lot of unnecessary confusion in this topic, creating more questions than answers. Are you deliberately trying to confuse me?

[falkor]

Falkor, come on now, this is really stupid.

I have actually been to the nearby villages. There are often old buildings in them. Old temples (there are MANY temples nearby the Shaolin temple, both on a level, above and below, its a mountain). I mean, they didn't build some of these places recently.

Go to google maps

Type in this;

shaolin si, dengfeng, henan, china

Then look to the WEST of the temple. ALL mountain. Many villages. Those names, Tangou, BaiYunCun etc. these are all the names of villages. They are deep in the mountain. They are hard to get to by road, easier by walking from Shaolin. It is faster to walk from the temple to BaiYunCun then to take busses. I know this because I have done it. Look at the scale, all these places are within a few miles. Easy walking distance.

SO deep in the mountain, what commercial appeal could start a village there? On the road to the EAST of SHaolin I could see the appeal, but to the west too?

How do you explain the ancient buildings in these towns? A lot was destroyed in the revolution but some remains and it is undeniable.

In the absence of old maps that you don't seem to be able to provide, please give me some examples of ancient architecture:
*Name of the building(s) (can be in Simplified Chinese if necessary)
*What period were the buildings built roughly?
*Weblink to the building in question (can be a website in Simplified Chinese if necessary)
*Location of the building and distance from the Shaolin temple

[falkor]

Of course anything can be translated.

And Wing Chun uses southern language because they are a southern style. Songshan uses northern language because it's a northern style. If the system was developed or made famous in a certain region, it's reflected in the name of the system and what language they refer to their forms/techs!!!

When you keep asking if X Cantonese style, is part of Y Mandarin style, it implies you don't know the difference.

Your first paragraph/sentence sounds like a contradiction to your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

As I said, I'm not sure on that, suffice to say, there are different drunken styles. I have read the book, (actually just bought it recently at Gene's suggestion, I'm no KF historian,) and seen that movie...I haven't seen the movie in a long time and I don't remember for sure, but I thought it was loosely based on the southern form. Could very well be wrong. Remember, it's just a movie. He could of just made it all up from wushu...I don't know for sure...not everything you see in the movies is an accurate portrayal of a system.

You are missing the point. The movie is based on the southern style practised by real martial artists off-screen, which in turn, has been transmitted from the north to the south, but is no longer taught in Song Shan. The fact the manual illustration looks just like the movie emphasises it's history.

[falkor]

Villages that have just recently had roads made to them? They built the modern, commercial villages before the roads?

Dude, I am currently in a tiny village, that you would have an awful hard time finding on any old fashioned map; and there's another little village 2 miles away and another one 2 miles in the other direction.

Have you never left your own town? Trust me, there are other villages out there.

Villages are never joined together? Have you ever heard of the suburbs? LOL

Suburbs are modern day. Villages never had suburbs in historical times and there were less towns, etc. This talk of villages is a complete red herring/straw man. It's totally irrelevant to pre-20th century Shaolin Kung Fu. It's just that some people believe the Shaolin temple had no boundary.

[falkor]

As you can see, from the many post between this post and your post, is not that there are not any maps for you to see. It is that you have unrealistic expectations of the kinds of proof historical documents can and/or do provide.

Maps? Are you kidding me? You think 200 years ago, or even further back in time, the whole world was mapped?

Maps were very rare and very unreliable. The "show me" or it didn't happen attitude can't apply to history.

From your posts, it appears you have one main source you base your fantasies on. Shababdabadoo may be a fine scholar. He may be a respected scholar. But that does not make him correct and it does not mean his sources are correct. He may be partially correct or not and you would never know.
History is not an exact science. It involves assumption, extrapolation, speculation and out right guessing.

The quality of written source material is determined by the writer's skill in writing, education, memory (which known to be notoriously inaccurate), temperament, the amount of time he takes to write, who he is writing for, how long after events he is writing, his personal integrity........ etc.


Just because someone wrote something in a book does not make it so, sometimes it is not even probable. Other times further information discovered or other information not considered negates the claims or conclusions an author writes.

History is not an exact science........ it is your expectation of certainty that is your error.

We have maps in England that show all the villages going back 500 years ago. China is the longest unbroken civilisation with some of the oldest paintings. They definitely will have maps going back 200 years of Henan, but you guys don't seem to know anything about the history. You expect me to look at Google Maps and believe your hypothesis about pre-20th century Shaolin Temple Town.

[rett]

In the absence of old maps that you don't seem to be able to provide, please give me some examples of ancient architecture:
*Name of the building(s) (can be in Simplified Chinese if necessary)
*What period were the buildings built roughly?
*Weblink to the building in question (can be a website in Simplified Chinese if necessary)
*Location of the building and distance from the Shaolin temple

Maybe you should buy a plane ticket, travel there, and find out for yourself. It sounds like the makings of an incredibly interesting journey.

[rett]

falkor, I get the feeling you're pushing an agenda.

There is some crucial point you're driving at or want to establish.

Could you just spell it out clearly? It would be easier to see where you're coming from.

[falkor]

Maybe you should buy a plane ticket, travel there, and find out for yourself. It sounds like the makings of an incredibly interesting journey.

What is that going to tell me about the history? I'm no expert on Chinese architecture.

[rett]

What is that going to tell me about the history? I'm no expert on Chinese architecture.

I think you'd need to talk to people in the villages and maybe look for records in archives that just never have made it onto the internet.

[Scott R. Brown]

We have maps in England that show all the villages going back 500 years ago. China is the longest unbroken civilisation with some of the oldest paintings. They definitely will have maps going back 200 years of Henan, but you guys don't seem to know anything about the history. You expect me to look at Google Maps and believe your hypothesis about pre-20th century Shaolin Temple Town.

China is much larger than Britain. More varied geography, More various dialects and local cultures. You are very unrealistic and naive.

The world did not occur according to your personal fancy!

[falkor]

falkor, I get the feeling you're pushing an agenda.

There is some crucial point you're driving at or want to establish.

Could you just spell it out clearly? It would be easier to see where you're coming from.

OK, time for a recap and to summarise what we have discussed:
MY QUESTION: What did pre-20th century Shaolin Kung Fu consist of as taught at the temple, and did it include animals styles? (credible sources only please)
ANSWER FROM SHAHAR: Earliest known styles taught at the temple: pressure points, plum flower fist, internal qi-circulation, drunken, Lost Track Fist. Nothing mentioned between Ming-Qing and 1904 except for styles taught in distant villages (compared the scale of today's villages)
ANSWER FROM THIS FORUM: Chang Quan (traditional only) broken down into small hong quan, big hong quan, and two roads hongquan, possibly Monkey style (that conversation is still in progress), Mantis style, Eagle (no details have yet been discussed on these possibilities or is inconclusive)

MY QUESTION: How was modern Wusu was formed and how does it compare to what the Shaolin monks were learning before? Who was consulted during it's creation and when did the monks first tour the world? Who studied traditional Wu Shu?
ANSWER FROM THIS FORUM: Wu Shu is categorised into several types Sanda (kickboxing) Wushu (competition), BiaoYan (performance) and Chuantong (traditional). Committee members have been named. Chang Quan is the base form. Books/magazine articles have been recommended by Gene Ching (and purchased). "Performance" created recently based on animal styles from Hong Kong Movies (southern)

GENERATED DISCUSSIONS: Were there gaps in the teachings at the temple during the 20th century? Did Shaolin Temple resemble a town with boundaries beyond its walls or is this a modern day commercial venture? Preserving manuals. RenDaHais's 2 previous masters: what they have taught him. Chang Quan as studied by RenDaHai in Song Shan. Did anyone migrate to other parts of China or Taiwan? Did the monks eat meat/drink wine or practise Drunken style? Did Shahar understand interplay between vilages and shaolin? RenDaHai's future video releases. Accuracy of oral traditions vs. written documents in the realm of scholarship. Do the Shaolin monks practise now what they did back in the day? Have any styles been lost? When was the Shaolin Temple burnt/destroyed? Similarities between Chang Quan and other styles taught in the north (and to a lesser extent the south; ChoyLiFut being the most similar). Chairman Mao. Kung Fu ban. The 1930s. South Shaolin Temple/Fujian or centralised zen temple under another name. Comparing today's Kung Fu styles. Does a native know more about history of his area compared to a foreigner? Shahar's agenda/scope and accuracy of his work. Were the 5 animals ever part of the Song Shan teachings? Do old maps exist of China? The lack of falkor's sources. Animal styles that imitate and those that are just named after animals. Accuracy/language of the naming of styles. Jet Li's Shaolin Temple and the lack of animal styles. So called Grandmasters of Shaolin Kung Fu and how they got the title. Confusion over northern/southern origins of styles. Kenpo. How long did it take for 1500 forms to evolve? How long did it take for the monks to learn performance (based on southern styles as seen in the movies)? Philosphy of Chan. Are we wasting energy writing/explaining things here? Bak Siu Lum and northern Shaolin. LKL and his plum flower fist. The science of history. Natives of the temple area vs. visitors in context of entry to the temple and study of Shaolin Kung Fu. The significance of roads and villages.

IMAGES: One photo of the Shaolin Temple without any caption. Jet Li's Shaolin Temple pressbook. Pictures of Chang Quan techniques.

VIDEOS: Videos of traditional Chang Quan as RenDaHai learnt in Song Shan villages. Videos of different types of Wushu.

[rett]

Thanks. But what answers are you hoping for? (if any?)

[bawang]

looks like you got all your answers. are you going to learn kung fu now?