Vertical V Horizontal Punching

[GlennR]

Not exactly great examples. The irish bare knuckle boxers will have learnt to fight in a conventional boxing gym or will have been taught by someone who did. You fight the way you train so of course two kids fighting in the street are going to fight the same way that they have been taught.

The vale tudo guys similarly will have been taught by a boxing coach / MT coach. Fighting styles change over time based on those that are successful, as boxing changed from the old bare knuckle extended hands to the earmuff defence of today over decades so MMA will change with time as fighters and coaches modify their training to suit the environment. The blend of styles has already changed, the next evolution will be the development of striking skills specifically for the arena in question.

Good post.

Funny how a lot of guys are now trying Mayweathers shoulder roll style in boxing now....... its all about copying who is succesful

[k gledhill]

Good post.

Funny how a lot of guys are now trying Mayweathers shoulder roll style in boxing now....... its all about copying who is succesful

Mayweathers shoulder roll is like a rear wu/pak . He also uses a 'lan sao' action as a block ( high to the neck ) and another 'jum like' elbow lower, same ideas, more like Blauers ' flinch wedge' ...he uses double palm aka po-pais to push a guy off into more punches as we do.

[Kevin73]

Horizontal v. Vertical Punching History of Punching

Little is known about the guard used by fighters and fighting rules before the great English pugilist Jack Broughton, a student of James Figg, devised the Broughton Rules in 1743. Broughton also invented "mufflers" (padded gloves), which were used in training and exhibitions. Under the Broughton Rules, not much was considered illegal when compared to the London Prize Ring Rules so a higher guard and quicker stance was necessary. There were no limitations against butting, gouging, kicking, or hitting below the belt. The rules mostly just kept a boxing match from becoming a wrestling match.

Until the use of gloves became common, pugilists struck mostly with a vertical fist because it was considered less injurious to the fist to hit with a vertical fist than a horizontal one, especially when using hooks or swinging punches. However, they used a horizontal fist when the target warranted it, such as to the side of the neck. The vertical fist was thought to have a greater range, but, in fact, the arm's reach does not get longer just because the fist is rotated 90 degrees, unless you make some other body adjustment.

Due to the confrontations American soldiers had with Filipino natives in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War in 1898, the guard was raised from the low knuckles downward position to the higher knuckles forward position. When engaged in hand-to-hand combat, the Filipinos would slash the wrists of the extended arms of the American soldiers.
The wearing of gloves in a boxing match is a fairly modern innovation. Prior to 1866, when the Marquis of Queensbury Rules made the wearing of gloves mandatory, boxers fought bare-knuckled. Gloves, or “mufflers” as they were called, were used only in sparring. One may think that fighting bare-knuckled, would cause significant damage to the fist. A common injury among modern boxers is the “boxer’s fracture,” in which the outer two knuckles, and sometimes the outer metacarpals of the hand are broken from the impact of an unprotected punch. Many boxing greats have broken their fists in this way when engaging in street fights.

Unless someone has definitive proof of the bolded statement, it is urban myth used by the filipino arts give a boost to themselves. Were there some fighters who had an extended guard in a knife fight and had their hands cut, probably. But, if you look at historical manuals in the 1850's (The Art and Practice of Boxing for one) you will see the "Full Guard" used to protect both sides of the head/chest/rib area that looks like the modern guard. Most of the pictures we see with a boxer standing there with his arm outstretched were stylized photos and not representative of how they actually fought. Boxing modified somethings as rules were changed, for example, the hook punch was rarely used because it was a close in blow and left the person open to being thrown, this changed when throws and grappling were banned. The guard changed as well since padded fists allowed more and harder head punches, so boxers developed around that rule set. It had nothing to do with Americans being in the Phillipines. In fact, the ONLY place I have seen this claim is from Panantukan website promoting Filipino boxing.

This goes hand in hand with the two other partial truths regarding Filipino martial arts. 1) That the .45 was developed ONLY because of the ferocity of the Filipino fighter, and 2) That the Marines were called Leathernecks because the Filipino's would try and cut their throats so they wore leather gorget's to protect themselves.

This is also the case with the horizontal vs. vertical punch. In many styles you trained the whole motion from chamber and as it turns you are training three different punches based on distancing. Close in it is an inverted punch (palm up) middle distance is a vertical punch and ****hest distance is a horizontal punch (palm down). Each punch had it's uses and strategies. Certain styles focused on a particular idea or range and adapted a punch best suited for that concept. In the case of Wing Chun, the vertical punch lands the best anatomically to the face. If I am targeting the pressure point just below the pectorals (like in Goju-Ryu) than the horiztonal punch makes more sense. If I am targeting the solar plexus, than a 3/4 or vertical punch will fit in better and so forth.

Anatomically, if you relax your arm completely and lift it, your hand will be in a 3/4 or diamond punch configuration, which is the strongest position of the two, due to the bones in the forearm and connective tissues.

[Eric_H]

Some vertical punchers say their punch is faster because there is no twist. If we assume this is true, how much faster is it? Sparring is not drag racing or downhill ski racing, it not judged by thousandths of a second. A few hundredths of a second in speed will not make any difference in whether a punch is blocked or not blocked so the hand is quicker than the eye. Once you see a fist move, it is too late to block or avoid it. To block or avoid a punch, you must detect the punch before it moves by reading the opponent's body language. Therefore, a punch that strikes harder will be more effective than one that is a millisecond faster.

Logical failure, as a vertical punch is harder to detect.

橫破直，直破橫。
Your opponent does not have a set style nor set way of fighting. We have to obey geometric efficiency.

Smartest GD statement I've ever seen come out of this forum.

[GlennR]

Mayweathers shoulder roll is like a rear wu/pak . He also uses a 'lan sao' action as a block ( high to the neck ) and another 'jum like' elbow lower, same ideas, more like Blauers ' flinch wedge' ...he uses double palm aka po-pais to push a guy off into more punches as we do.

Nicely spotted Kev

Hard style to pull of though as Berto learnt a few weeks ago

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvd...e#.UMeeGOTCZ8E

[k gledhill]

Nicely spotted Kev

Hard style to pull of though as Berto learnt a few weeks ago

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvd...e#.UMeeGOTCZ8E

I show wsl pb vt ideas to boxers and coaches in the gym I train in, all like it. The simultaneous actions, etc...

[Frost]

Not exactly great examples. The irish bare knuckle boxers will have learnt to fight in a conventional boxing gym or will have been taught by someone who did. You fight the way you train so of course two kids fighting in the street are going to fight the same way that they have been taught.

The vale tudo guys similarly will have been taught by a boxing coach / MT coach. Fighting styles change over time based on those that are successful, as boxing changed from the old bare knuckle extended hands to the earmuff defence of today over decades so MMA will change with time as fighters and coaches modify their training to suit the environment. The blend of styles has already changed, the next evolution will be the development of striking skills specifically for the arena in question.

most of the early vale tudo fights in brazil and the early ufcs were guys who had no boxing training, they came from traditional backgrounds and yet when they started actually looking for barehand knockout punches they started using swinging punches, overhands and wide hooks not vertical straight shots, and whilst some of the irish bare knuckle guys have some boxing training most dont, you can watch any fight and see they are just tough guys going at it and they are using wide hooks and overhands as well

as for the evolution in MMA its happening now to an extend you are seeing alot fighters moving towards a more dutch style of thai standup in stead of the usual boxing or traditional thai style: this means less use of the jab and cross, less use of head movement: bobbing and weaving etc, more use of a high guard to absorb the strikes and moving backwards or circling off line in defence. In attack level changes or slipping and stepping off line is used to set up your strikes

Hooks, overhands and uppercuts are thrown a lot, the hooks are to the head and thrown at a longer distance than a normal boxing hook , they are also angled to the body like a shovel hook, overhands whip in and down and the upperhook is also used a lot but it’s a longer range uppercut you punch it forward and up with the little finger facing the opponent and most combinations were finished with a hard low roundhouse.

If the jab is used it’s a stiff whole body punch like a straight left,

The reason for all the above according to a few MMA coaches i work with is that is that weak straight shots (and even strong crosses) are easy to follow into the clinch or walk through and short hooks and upper cuts are too much in clinch range, you want to hit them hard with every strike because you only got a few changes before clinch range is hit, you want to throw their timing off by hitting from all sorts of angles so they don’t know what is coming and at a range long enough that they cant clinch the body easy and get punished everytime they try to come in

So the evolution is happening but its not moving towards the tight straight vertical punch, its moving i the opposite direction if anything

[k gledhill]

A good example of VT vertical strikes was seen in the recent UFC 155 Wineland v Pickett , Joe Rogan praising Wineland for throwing , I quote " Wing chun /Bruce lee JKD type vertical punches" to dominate and win the fight. Wineland had an upright 'chin up' VT like stance, unlike a boxer style (Pickett) who walked into a lot of strikes. Wineland used the direct lines to strike along with mobility and angles to counter Picketts hooks, uppercuts and overhand swings. Winelands mobility shutting down clinching.