Incorporating Ground Fighting in Shaolin

[LFJ]

Not to the same level as bjj or judo...

...Again, not to the same standard.

...No, shaolin is incomplete because it does not have a mastery of grappling and no real ground fighting component by comparison to BJJ or judo.

...Again not to the same standard.

...The shaolin training is incomplete because it does not have sufficient training for ground grappling

So says you, but as far as I know you have no experience in Shaolin whatsoever. Even many who do never really touch this aspect of traditional Shaolin ditanggong. What do you know about it to make the comparison?

And where is this magical street hmmm? There are a multitude of self defence situations. Not all exclude the possibility of offensive ground grappling and none exclude the need for grappling skills both standing and on the ground.

No magical street or street magic involved, just any old street where someone could stick you in the gut with a knife you never see when you roll on them, or have their buddies tee off on your head. So really any street.

Shaolin obviously includes grappling, but taking an opponent down and following them to the ground offensively is never a necessity, and is not wise from Shaolin combat perspective. Maybe you have different ideas. That's fine. But Shaolin needs not incorporate that aspect if it's against the objective, deemed unsafe outside of sport and is not a real necessity like ground defense.

That may make it an incomplete art in sport, but Shaolin is about survival, not sport.

And not knowing how to deal when you happen to find yourself on the ground is just as bad. You are of the misguided opinion that those who train in BJJ will always choose to go to the ground.

...That's why traditional Shaolin has an area of ditanggong which covers upright position recovery, positional ground escapes, joint manipulations, breath obstructions, etc., all with the objective of "recovery", and never reversal for ground control. Please read the thread.

I don't care what BJJ practitioners might sometimes do, it is a fact that it includes the offensive ground fighting strategy, especially in sport, which in Shaolin is not deemed safe outside a protected environment, not a necessity, and therefore not desirable from a practical self-defense perspective. If there's just one guy, no weapons involved, you may be able to pull it off, but it's a risk not worth taking when your life is at stake and not just a blemish on your win-loss record.

I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over. Wish you guys who chime in would read the thread first.

[Frost]

If you keep thinking people are missing your message on a consistent basis maybe you should reword it

And we wish you would make some sort of sense because we have all seen this arguement before, Yes shaolin has ground work but its not for sport its for survival, its there but not many know it (the reference always being the person writing about it is one of the handful who has the real deal but wont share videos of themselves just write about it)

Then said person writes something along the following: what use is ground workout as BJJ does it outside of a sport arena because on the street you will get knifed and or destroyed by his buddies, we are not about sport we are about survival, we are about recovery and escape. Yes we have positional escapes, joint locks and chokes etc but no I cant show you anyone doing them anywhere because only a few know them, me being one of them but I don’t want to share clips of myself and you won’t find them anywhere but trust me we (and I) have them

[LFJ]

I've actually only seen a couple people on these forums talk about Shaolin ditanggong before, and not meaning break-falls and back-flips. We may have had one thread a long time ago.

[LFJ]

what use is ground workout as BJJ does it outside of a sport arena

Never made such an argument, btw.
Read more carefully, or don't skim perhaps.

[Kellen Bassette]

[QUOTE=Bacon;1204997



And not knowing how to deal when you happen to find yourself on the ground is just as bad. You are of the misguided opinion that those who train in BJJ will always choose to go to the ground. That is quite simply stupid and ignorant. [/QUOTE]

I think it's safe to say, that while their may be striking in BJJ, BJJ is not known for striking, anymore than Shaolin is known for ground fighting.

[Shaolin]

So says you, but as far as I know you have no experience in Shaolin whatsoever. Even many who do never really touch this aspect of traditional Shaolin ditanggong. What do you know about it to make the comparison?

I asked you the same question about your BJJ training which instead of answering you attempted a lame insult about my Shaolin training.

[Matthew]

No magical street or street magic involved, just any old street where someone could stick you in the gut with a knife you never see when you roll on them, or have their buddies tee off on your head. So really any street.

This is also my experience. I had a long-time friend who took up MMA a few years back respond to my mention of street fighting tactics (eye gouging, wind pipe pulling, groin striking, etc) are really "Puhssy."

Note - he lives in a city with a significantly lower violent crime rate than where I live.

Shaolin obviously includes grappling, but taking an opponent down and following them to the ground offensively is never a necessity, and is not wise from Shaolin combat perspective.

Agreed.

An old friend of mine was a long time street fighter and an amateur MMA fighter. One street fight he walked away from involved him taking a guy down - following him down - to beat on him.

He was hit across the side of the face with brass knuckles by the guys friend. Although he ended up winning the fight (more due to his mental instability than fighting abilities IMO) he went to the hospital with a broken/fractured jaw.

It's easy to see he got off lucky, if instead it was a steel toe boot to his temple, a knife, a spiked bat, a heel to the back of the neck, etc etc.

If there's just one guy, no weapons involved, you may be able to pull it off, but it's a risk not worth taking when your life is at stake and not just a blemish on your win-loss record.

My understanding is that JJ/Judo developed when wearing body armor that rendered striking/small weapons ineffective - so the focus was on grappling and joint manipulation (be it on ground or not).


That is, to realize that no one method of training is inherently better than another, but that they do have different purpose and/or focus.


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I believe if we all take the mind set that the vast majority of us are doing these things for health, fitness, or happiness - that we could more openly discuss.

[Lucas]

I thought we were all ruthless, brutal, killing machines, with the express intention of training in martial arts ONLY to kill other men in mortal combat.

[Kellen Bassette]

I thought we were all ruthless, brutal, killing machines, with the express intention of training in martial arts ONLY to kill other men in mortal combat.

Right?? I feel so disillusioned....

[LFJ]

I asked you the same question about your BJJ training which instead of answering you attempted a lame insult about my Shaolin training.

With BJJ being so popular, there are countless examples on the internet of what it involves, from endless technique tutorials, to interviews and competition videos. So much that anyone on these forums, even a non-martial artist could comment on what BJJ involves.

With Shaolin on the other hand, many traditional boxing sets, which are the popular thing to do, have not made it on video, much less actual applications or Shaolin ground fighting.

So with Bacon's complete lack of experience in Shaolin, I have to ask how he's able to make the comparison. And my "lame insult" about your Shaolin training was more of an observation. I don't know if I'd rate your experience (Yanming+VCDs) any higher than Bacon's, unless you've had more recent exposure somewhere. So the question has to be asked.

[Syn7]

Right?? I feel so disillusioned....

That's why I wear tactical gear and have a big mirror in my living room. Makes me feel hard.

[Syn7]

With BJJ being so popular, there are countless examples on the internet of what it involves, from endless technique tutorials, to interviews and competition videos. So much that anyone on these forums, even a non-martial artist could comment on what BJJ involves.

With Shaolin on the other hand, many traditional boxing sets, which are the popular thing to do, have not made it on video, much less actual applications or Shaolin ground fighting.

So with Bacon's complete lack of experience in Shaolin, I have to ask how he's able to make the comparison. And my "lame insult" about your Shaolin training was more of an observation. I don't know if I'd rate your experience (Yanming+VCDs) any higher than Bacon's, unless you've had more recent exposure somewhere. So the question has to be asked.

Nothing is so commonplace as the wish to be remarkable. - Oliver Wendell Holmes

So you can assess bjj through videos and nobody can assess Shaolin without moving to China and learning all the nifty lil secrets you are privy to. Right...

[Shaolin]

I don't know if I'd rate your experience (Yanming+VCDs) any higher than Bacon's, unless you've had more recent exposure somewhere.

Rate my experience? Do we know each other? Where are you getting your information? How do you know what my experience is? I've made less than 500 posts in 12 years and I think I've maybe mentioned 2-3 of my coaches in that time.

[LFJ]

So you can assess bjj through videos and nobody can assess Shaolin without moving to China and learning all the nifty lil secrets you are privy to. Right...

The point is just this: if something is on video, anyone can make an assessment and comparison against something else, especially if they have experience and are familiar with it, but even if they are a non-martial artist. If something is not on video, and the person furthermore has 0 experience in the system from which it comes, I just have to wonder what they can base their comparison on to say it is not developed to the level of something else. Also, something not being common knowledge in the west doesn't make it a secret or even nifty.

[LFJ]

Rate my experience? Do we know each other? Where are you getting your information? How do you know what my experience is? I've made less than 500 posts in 12 years and I think I've maybe mentioned 2-3 of my coaches in that time.

The information comes from yourself. I've seen you mention your Shaolin experience/instructor, unless you've had more recent exposure, and I've seen videos of you and your students. I'll leave it at that. Don't ask me to embarrass you here.