Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[LFJ]

Thanks for changing the topic and ignoring the points on the hook punch, Joy.

[k gledhill]

Thanks for changing the topic and ignoring the points on the hook punch, Joy.

Welcome to Joys fantasy world. Its a common thing with him....ignore and carry on.

[Vajramusti]

Equally you could be confused by Misunderstanding more than your ego will allow.

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I don't think so- ditto for other good wing chun people that I know.
But you have your opinions- your business.

[GlennR]

I just did. See above.



Nice you wrote adhere to the "principals", because you listen to whatever the Sifu with a pretty lineage chart says is Wing Chun.

Unfortunately, a circular punch doesn't adhere to the "principles" of WC.

No you didn't answer it. Once again, if I miss with the left, he shifts inside it, would you hook of the semi extended left (keep in mind the right is tied up) or do you withdraw it to then strike in a straight WC fashion?

A boxer might call that hooking of the jab.

And thanks for the childish reference to a pretty lineage chart or whatever that means.
By all means have fun and a laugh on here but why does everything turn into a slagging match???

Oh, and who said WSL's knee was a straight knee?????

[LFJ]

No you didn't answer it. Once again, if I miss with the left, he shifts inside it, would you hook of the semi extended left (keep in mind the right is tied up) or do you withdraw it to then strike in a straight WC fashion?

Neither. The opening action of the dummy form deals with this situation. "Cheung kiu faat lik". Pull the elbow to the center as you shift and it brings the opponent's head and whole body down so they can't continue, while it puts you in the dominate position for counter.

Why do you need to add something to the system that will leave your center open, like a hook punch when the opponent is already inside your guard. Do you not think their straight line attack will beat your curve?

[LFJ]

Oh, and who said WSL's knee was a straight knee?????

It's obvious from the scenario. With someone's head low with their face right in front of you, why the heck would you circle it around? I think there may even be a video of him somewhere explaining it and showing what he did, a simple straight knee to the dome.

[GlennR]

Neither. The opening action of the dummy form deals with this situation. "Cheung kiu faat lik". Pull the elbow to the center as you shift and it brings the opponent's head and whole body down so they can't continue, while it puts you in the dominate position for counter.

Why do you need to add something to the system that will leave your center open, like a hook punch when the opponent is already inside your guard. Do you not think their straight line attack will beat your curve?

I see it differently
If I see an open line from my hand to his head of less than a foot, surely that is a pretty short and direct line...... Forget that it's driven by a turning body, it's only a fairly fine arc at that distance and extension.

You could argue that your approach is chasing hands???

[LFJ]

@2:17 - elbow draws to the center, straight line, closed attack affecting the opponent's posture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

Your suggestion is throwing a hook punch when the opponent is already inside, and your other arm is tied up? What's to stop them from coming straight down your center in one beat, inside your hook, while you open the path with it?

[GlennR]

It's obvious from the scenario. With someone's head low with their face right in front of you, why the heck would you circle it around? I think there may even be a video of him somewhere explaining it and showing what he did, a simple straight knee to the dome.

You're probably right given the situation but there is that possibility

[GlennR]

@2:17 - elbow draws to the center, straight line, closed attack affecting the opponent's posture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

Your suggestion is throwing a hook punch when the opponent is already inside, and your other arm is tied up? What's to stop them from coming straight down your center in one beat, inside your hook, while you open the path with it?

Well I could throw the hook as quick as the grab that WSL was showing so that makes the argument invalid

They are both one motion so his response could be the same to both as you describe

[LFJ]

If I see an open line from my hand to his head of less than a foot, surely that is a pretty short and direct line...... Forget that it's driven by a turning body, it's only a fairly fine arc at that distance and extension.

Well I could throw the hook as quick as the grab that WSL was showing so that makes the argument invalid

The problem is popping the elbow up which leaves your center open, with them already inside your guard, they'll come straight down your wide open center past your hook. You have to close that up with the elbow and shift. Dummy form, action number 1.

You could argue that your approach is chasing hands???

See the video above. It has nothing to do with their hands. It goes after their core.

[Graham H]

In my system both of these actions in Bil Jee and within the Dummy form are for recovering the elbow back to the center. No hook punches, no pulling people's heads down, grabbing or circling around things. In my head that complies with the conceptual idea of Ving Tsun. No applications. Just ideas. This idea can be applied to everything in the context of BJ as it means that there is a problem. When you use applications each action has only one or two reasons behind it otherwise you have a syllabus as big as the bible. Chum Kiu assumes we have good structure. BJ and certain ideas in the dummy means we do not. The important thing in Ving Tsun is to have control and protection of our own center. Many things can fail in a real fight and if the elbow deviates from the center we recover it for punching and protection.

Of course you can't stand in front of a crowd of paying customers or new students and say that. The seminar would be over in 15 minutes.

Ving Tsun doesn't make you wrestle with your attacker. It teaches you to punch or kick them as these have positive effects.

The last thing I would want to do is grab a 18 stone guy and pull his head so why put it inside the VT system which has other safer strategies for fighting?

Guys pulling other guys heads down and controlling them is ok inside the Blue Oyster Bar but not in Ving Tsun

[GlennR]

The problem is popping the elbow up which leaves your center open, with them already inside your guard, they'll come straight down your wide open center past your hook. You have to close that up with the elbow and shift. Dummy form, action number 1.



See the video above. It has nothing to do with their hands. It goes after their core.

You can hook with the elbow somewhat down, boxing 101 would say the elbow is up with the forearm parallel to the ground but ,plenty of the greatest hooks in history have been with the elbow down.

You are right that you are attacking his structure but still, in my understanding of WC, is that it all starts with the strike.... Any of the other acts come after that has been thrown

So in he scenario why not hit the guy with the hook then follow with your preferred action.... I've hit him and then I chase his structure which is easier to pull of if he is a bit stunned.

[GlennR]

In my system both of these actions in Bil Jee and within the Dummy form are for recovering the elbow back to the center. No hook punches, no pulling people's heads down, grabbing or circling around things. In my head that complies with the conceptual idea of Ving Tsun. No applications. Just ideas. This idea can be applied to everything in the context of BJ as it means that there is a problem. When you use applications each action has only one or two reasons behind it otherwise you have a syllabus as big as the bible. Chum Kiu assumes we have good structure. BJ and certain ideas in the dummy means we do not. The important thing in Ving Tsun is to have control and protection of our own center. Many things can fail in a real fight and if the elbow deviates from the center we recover it for punching and protection.

Of course you can't stand in front of a crowd of paying customers or new students and say that. The seminar would be over in 15 minutes.

Ving Tsun doesn't make you wrestle with your attacker. It teaches you to punch or kick them as these have positive effects.

The last thing I would want to do is grab a 18 stone guy and pull his head so why put it inside the VT system which has other safer strategies for fighting?

Guys pulling other guys heads down and controlling them is ok inside the Blue Oyster Bar but not in Ving Tsun

So in that situation G you wouldn't strike like I suggested or grab like lfj suggested ( both valid IMO).... So you'd just bring the elbow back to the centre?

Surely an opportunity missed???

[LFJ]

You can hook with the elbow somewhat down, boxing 101 would say the elbow is up with the forearm parallel to the ground but ,plenty of the greatest hooks in history have been with the elbow down.

Maybe "down" as in somewhat lower than the fist, but with the fist horizontal as in the hook in Joy's picture, it's impossible to get the elbow down in the center.

With a vertical fist, having the elbow down and to the center causes the fist to travel in a straight line to the target, meaning it's not a hook at all anyway.

So in he scenario why not hit the guy with the hook then follow with your preferred action.... I've hit him and then I chase his structure which is easier to pull of if he is a bit stunned.

I've explained why not. Because the hook leaves the elbow out which makes a nice little opening right down your center where the guy would be anyway. If he rushes in (assuming you're not fighting another WC guy) he will enter right inside your hook which will miss, and since your body hasn't shifted and elbow closed the center, he will come right into your chest, perhaps to clinch around your waist for a takedown if he's a grappler. And all your hook will do is hug him.

The first dummy action is to shift and close the center to prevent them coming in. It also immediately affects their posture and balance so that you can continue to strike them effectively. Just standing there and hooking is a big gamble. You've done nothing to close and prevent them getting in.

That's just one reason why hook punches don't fit in Wing Chun concepts or strategy. It's not a game of boxing, or just against other WC guys.