Wing chun vids share please take 2

[LFJ]

To a certain extent, sure. You'd at least have experience to know what happens in a fight and could speak on it more than myself if I had no such experience. But then there's still skill and learning to account for. You might not have the same type of training experience to judge what you're seeing in a chi-sau clip and afterall your fight experience may have just been getting your ass whooped a bunch and never learning anything from it.

[Wayfaring]

There's your problem. Comparing chi-sau practice to fighting.

Many clips I saw like this were labeled "gor sau" or "go sau". I believe this is supposed to indicate more of a live striking environment more like a fight than chi sau. Amiwrong?

I saw a lot of punching in that clip. Maybe your internet connection is slow? But if you actually punch your partner (which you want to see?) you won't have anyone to train with, or they just won't learn anything.

Mind you... each time you make contact with your palm to your opponent's face and push, that is well understood as easily being a punch to knock your head off in reality. But it's partner practice, not fighting......

And here again is this "congruence" issue. Placing a palm on someone's face, a chop next to someone's neck, or pushing someone all have a HUGE difference in dynamic from really hitting someone. Real sparring can be scaled lighter and heavier as well. However what you see in real sparring is body positioning such that you know when a punch is pulled. I suppose I need to define that term. "Pulling" a punch means that all the dynamics of the punch are identical to one that knocks your block off all the way up to the last few inches. Then rapid deceleration takes place to remove the force. This is opposite to "pushing" a punch. "Pushing" a punch means that the dynamics to throw a punch are never there, but the limb is extended out with little to no power until it reaches the resting place. What I see in this clip is "pushing" punches, not "pulling" punches.

The next telling point is that all the little kids in their pumped up kicks on PB's jock here don't see this. They think that these push punches are "well understood as easily being a punch to knock your head off in reality". There is NO amount of "push" punch training that is going to do ANYTHING for your ability to knock anyone's head off. Or even hit them if its an escalated situation. "Pulled" punches WILL train you for live escalated situations.

Did you ever see WSL practicing chi-sau? Do you see him actually punching David here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvfCJHyui0

To me what I see there is WSL doing a sensitivity drill. What's the difference? It doesn't seem to be a semi-escalated chi sau drill moving into sparring / fight / gor sau arena while training the wrong things to be in that arena like slappy strikes and pushed punches.

What are you going to do now, compare that to his actual fights and say WSL is not in congruence with WSL?

Sure I would venture to say that clip with Peterson is quite different from how WSL actually fought. And it sounds like you are on the same page.

[JPinAZ]

And here again is this "congruence" issue. Placing a palm on someone's face, a chop next to someone's neck, or pushing someone all have a HUGE difference in dynamic from really hitting someone. Real sparring can be scaled lighter and heavier as well. However what you see in real sparring is body positioning such that you know when a punch is pulled. I suppose I need to define that term. "Pulling" a punch means that all the dynamics of the punch are identical to one that knocks your block off all the way up to the last few inches. Then rapid deceleration takes place to remove the force. This is opposite to "pushing" a punch. "Pushing" a punch means that the dynamics to throw a punch are never there, but the limb is extended out with little to no power until it reaches the resting place. What I see in this clip is "pushing" punches, not "pulling" punches.

This is spot on! And point to one of bigger problems I see with people that spend so much time "doing chi sao" to the point where they no longer know or can see the differences you're talking about.

On a semi-related note (and I'm sure I'll catch heat on this from some people here ):
Imo, all of the squared-up 2-hand connected tan/bong/fook "Chi Saoing" we see is a very specific range and facing and would be a very short timeframe in an actual fight (I'm talking a split second or two at most) - that is, IF it even occurs at all.

Most of the clips showing 2 guys going at it chi saoing for sometimes a minute or two straight is really 180 degrees from what WC should be. I never could wrap my head around it. If one of the guys were to throw just one real punch during any of it, most of the chi sao looping shown would halt almost immediately. And not saying the people in the clips don't have the skills to defend agaisnt a punch (they very well may), but there's no real proof if you jsut watch the clips. And I'm talking more specifically about all the T/B/F and Bong/Laap/Push chis sao looping mega-battles to gladiator music that carry on for sometimes minutes at a time. Fights just don't happen like that.

[Sean66]

I disagree (respectfully) with your analysis of the PB video, Wayfaring.
I've experienced Philipp live and he is not pushing his punches. He is stopping or "pulling" them before making contact. His pushing the face with the palm is just a way of assuring himself that he is in the right distance to really knock someone's block off. The push is really a punch, but he uses the palm in the interests of his training partner.

The dynamics of his punching are always the same, whether it be in chi sao practice, using the wall bag or heavy bag, or in sparring. PB has ended his share of fights with just one punch.

The fak sau (what you refer to as the chop next to someone's neck) is also "pulled". I've seen a training partner of mine sent to his knees vomiting after having been hit by this technique while training with Michael Kurth. It's not just a slappy happy thing.

I am no fan boy. I'm not even in Philipp's organization. Whatever your take on the personalities involved, PB himself is a fighter all the way. If you doubt it, just go see for yourself. Then you'll see the clips in a new light.

[wingchunIan]

This is spot on! And point to one of bigger problems I see with people that spend so much time "doing chi sao" to the point where they no longer know or can see the differences you're talking about.

On a semi-related note (and I'm sure I'll catch heat on this from some people here ):
Imo, all of the squared-up 2-hand connected tan/bong/fook "Chi Saoing" we see is a very specific range and facing and would be a very short timeframe in an actual fight (I'm talking a split second or two at most) - that is, IF it even occurs at all.

Most of the clips showing 2 guys going at it chi saoing for sometimes a minute or two straight is really 180 degrees from what WC should be. I never could wrap my head around it. If one of the guys were to throw just one real punch during any of it, most of the chi sao looping shown would halt almost immediately. And not saying the people in the clips don't have the skills to defend agaisnt a punch (they very well may), but there's no real proof if you jsut watch the clips. And I'm talking more specifically about all the T/B/F and Bong/Laap/Push chis sao looping mega-battles to gladiator music that carry on for sometimes minutes at a time. Fights just don't happen like that.

Not sure i agree with you there. By that logic classes would be very short, you'd never do more than one bong sao, a couple of punches, maybe a garn sao etc after all there's no point drilling or sparring because real fights dont last very long and sequential repetitions of the same shape rarely happen (as they do in drilling). Chi sao and lap sao drill are development exercises, not fighting. They are designed to develop certain attributes which can be applied in fighting.

[BPWT]

On a semi-related note (and I'm sure I'll catch heat on this from some people here ): Imo, all of the squared-up 2-hand connected tan/bong/fook "Chi Saoing" we see is a very specific range and facing and would be a very short timeframe in an actual fight

I was raising a similar question on the Po Pai thread - questioning the staying in a single range only for the lap sau drills and the chi sau itself. But that said, if I understand what Kevin said in reply, they train this way for a specific purpose (tactical to the drill), and I think they train other methods too to give more flexibility of range (range in relation to the relative body positioning).

In LT WT, we play with the ranges more in gor sao and also in lat sau (Hong Kong version, I am not too familiar with the German take on it). In both gor sau and lat sau (actually the two cross over), you are constantly moving in and out of various striking ranges (which for us is itself a part of the exercise).

But all such training is attribute training and each YM lineage has reasons for doing things the way they do them. To be honest, it is kind of interesting to see different approaches.

(but secretly I know my way is right and everyone else is totally wrong - just kidding!)

[LFJ]

I've experienced Philipp live and he is not pushing his punches. He is stopping or "pulling" them before making contact. His pushing the face with the palm is just a way of assuring himself that he is in the right distance to really knock someone's block off. The push is really a punch, but he uses the palm in the interests of his training partner.

That's what I'm saying. Wayfaring's eyes are perhaps not fast enough, but there are plenty of actual pulled punches stopped at the guy's chin in that clip, not just the palm check and push.

And Wayfaring, "more like a fight" is still very different from an actual fight.

[k gledhill]

Back to clips : one from Sean I found today , nice!

http://youtu.be/J0U9Kfp8XRY

[LFJ]

Very good VT, Sean. Your guys are doing great!

[Graham H]

Good work Sean

[k gledhill]

At wayfaring, in our repertoire of strikes a palm/push to face and thumb in eye is a regular attack . There is a method for this that makes it hard for the recipient to avoid it. Iow I don't need to take my hand off your face to make a punch, I can make you evade a thumb gouge and you turn yourself for me as your head turns offering other attacks if the thumb isn't enough , if the body turns too, into a rnc, body lock>suplex. A " c clamp" to throat is less seen but equally available , neck crank , etc...philipp is constantly thumbing eye when hand on face.

[Wayfaring]

That's what I'm saying. Wayfaring's eyes are perhaps not fast enough, but there are plenty of actual pulled punches stopped at the guy's chin in that clip, not just the palm check and push.

Spoken like a true believer on a quest. Anyone making real observations of real clips - oh, their eyes must just not be quick enough to pick up the blinding speed of PB.

Sorry LFJ, I see the ONE thing PB doing is speeding up a normal chi sau exchange to more like a fight pace. BUT, I see a lot of slappy/pushy in that. Maybe if I go back and do frame by frame or isolate the clip segments where that is happening you'll be able to see it's not slow eyespeed or whatever.

And Wayfaring, "more like a fight" is still very different from an actual fight.

It shouldn't be. Otherwise as I'm pointing out you are conditioning the wrong things as responses.

[Wayfaring]

At wayfaring, in our repertoire of strikes a palm/push to face and thumb in eye is a regular attack . There is a method for this that makes it hard for the recipient to avoid it. Iow I don't need to take my hand off your face to make a punch, I can make you evade a thumb gouge and you turn yourself for me as your head turns offering other attacks if the thumb isn't enough , if the body turns too, into a rnc, body lock>suplex. A " c clamp" to throat is less seen but equally available , neck crank , etc...philipp is constantly thumbing eye when hand on face.

This doesn't make sense to me. If I have the delivery method to place a hand over your jaw, then that delivery method should suffice for me to hit you on the button and put you down.

The only way it wouldn't is if somehow the delivery method adjusts an opening to the face but at such low velocities there is no alternative other than to grab the face and start working low percentage and rip techniques because there is no other alternative. In other words, if it is a push entry not a striking entry.

Can you make something work from there? Well, I'm sure with enough practice you can do anything. But it's not ideal by any means. It's half way between grappling hand fighting and striking. And that puts you in no mans land.

If someone is resting their hand on my face, for example, even if they are trying to eye gouge with the thumb, that is natural movement into a Russian 2 on 1 chained to a single-leg takedown same side as the hand on my face. Or 2 or 3 other attacks all starting with a resting hand. In other words, a grappler can work with any hand at rest on a part of your body. IF you are going to work techniques like this you'd better train it against someone with skilled wrestling movement and hand fighting.

[Wayfaring]

Back to the clip and examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcozWSvpjs

:02 -05 - three push techniques - RH push punch on shoulder, collapsed RH push with elbow, RH push on face.

Now maybe this is a chi sau drill and PB being a smaller guy has this as a natural reaction to an opponent bulling into him. But no way you would do that in a real fight - you would either dissipate the bull rush as it is developing or if it forces you back angle step off back 45 degrees and punch the bull in the side of his jaw. In any skilled art - WCK, boxing, MT, probably half a dozen TCMA. Not push him away.

I could do this throughout the clip, but it illustrates my point. No, my eyes aren't too slow to pick up what PB is doing there. He is pushing a guy away to maintain distance. And IMO that is exactly what you don't want to train for real fighting. Why? As I said it puts you in a no-mans-land between striking and grappling. Now if you're a good grappler I guess you could make an excuse. But I wouldn't do that. The resting hand and the static nature of the push would give an opponent of mine leverage to open me up to take me down.

Now maybe you think I'm picking on PB. I'm really not for a few reasons. First, I don't think it's PB putting that video up on YouTube. And it's not him explaining what's going on. Maybe to him he would read this thread, 100% agree with me, and say of course he was pushing the guy off and he wouldn't do that in a fight or in fight sparring. Most people who have logged thousands of hours sparring time wouldn't draw drastically different conclusions.

So my only caution here would be against somehow speeding up chi sau but not transitioning the elements of chi sau into fight-simulation striking.

And my question for the fan club is whether or not this clip of PB represents the pace and training methods you go for in all of your classes, or what differences do you have?

[Paddington]

That's what I'm saying. Wayfaring's eyes are perhaps not fast enough, but there are plenty of actual pulled punches stopped at the guy's chin in that clip, not just the palm check and push.

Just a quick point of note that some of you might find useful to view training/fighting/martial clips.

I use the freely available VLC media player to view all such clips. It has, as standard, a slow motion feature. Further editing tools (plugins) that allow you to use a slider to move the image backwards or forwards around the time stamp of interest, at a number of slow motion levels, is also freely available.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html

Of course, using VLC media player assumes that you have, for example, downloaded streaming media such as that available via youtube. I use a third party and freely available add on to Firefox to downland such clips. It is called 'DownloadHelper'.

http://www.downloadhelper.net/

Anyway, I've found these software tools to be of great help when analyzing peoples movements in clips. When discussing clips with others, it enables us to move forwards quickly in analysis rather than be stuck in the routine of 'to fast to see' etc.