Wing chun vids share please take 2

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Paddington;1210032]

I think I share your view here, Joy. If only these forums were moderated properly so that useful discussion could occur more often. I am noticing that most just take their conversations elsewhere, which is a shame cause it kills these boards.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no moderation to speak of. Plus some posters remain anonymous. There is keyboard motion without brain activity. Egos.

My expectations are low.

[Wayfaring]

Clearly chi sao would have no relevance in defending the take down, that is purely a matter of not spotting the change in level and having poor footwork, probably due to lack of exposure to that type of attack.

And yet a grappler's handfighting has everything to do with defending the takedown. If chi sau plays in the same arena, how can it not address the same deficiencies?

[Wayfaring]

The easiest way to differentiate chi sao ideas is to make one Idea based on arms feeling other arms in a combat mode and arms developing a multifaceted striking concept in a mutual drilling platform without competition to defeat another in a delusional ritualized form of combat.

Pick your way.

Trying to decipher.

2 ideas:

1) arms feeling other arms in a combat mode
2) arms developing a multifaceted striking concept in a mutual drilling platform

and developing the ideas is more important than ritualized competition?

amiclose?

[Wayfaring]

A true believer of what and on what quest? I've never met PB and am not even of his lineage. You honestly didn't see the punches in that clip?

Some, but far more of the other. Problematic in developing fighting skills IMO.

That shouldn't really be necessary. There were too many clearly pulled punches in that clip. Wayfaring was just sleeping and obviously knows nothing about chi-sau, as evidenced by his 'if you did that you'd be open to this' type arguments.

Or I know something about chi sau including its deficiencies in training live fighting scenarios.

[LFJ]

Or I know something about chi sau including its deficiencies in training live fighting scenarios.

Further proving my point. That is not even the purpose of chi-sau. If chi-sau is the only type of pressure testing in training, I'd have a problem with it. Do you look at daan-chi and say it's deficient because you'd just hit them with the other hand?

[Wayfaring]

Further proving my point. That is not even the purpose of chi-sau. If chi-sau is the only type of pressure testing in training, I'd have a problem with it. Do you look at daan-chi and say it's deficient because you'd just hit them with the other hand?

whatever point you have exists only in your own head.

[LaRoux]

Clearly chi sao would have no relevance in defending the take down, that is purely a matter of not spotting the change in level and having poor footwork, probably due to lack of exposure to that type of attack.

Are you trying to say that defending a takedown is just a matter of spotting a level change and having decent footwork and that the arms/hands play no role in this?

[wingchunIan]

And yet a grappler's handfighting has everything to do with defending the takedown. If chi sau plays in the same arena, how can it not address the same deficiencies?

A grappler's hand fighting would have nothing to do with defending that takedown. It was a shoot to the legs aiming to achieve a double or single. Fighting for hand position is only relevant from a clinch / contact start point. To defend a shoot you don't try to control the arms whatever art you study. The shoot uses the legs to cover distance and propel the body beyond the opponent's centre of gravity, in return it has to be defended by moving the legs and the centre of gravity, aka moving off the line or sprawling.

[wingchunIan]

Are you trying to say that defending a takedown is just a matter of spotting a level change and having decent footwork and that the arms/hands play no role in this?

The arms play an important role in preventing an opponent from pursuing the attack either through maintaining distance, punishing the attempt or both, but without footwork the hands mean nothing. Go to any mma gym or wrestling gym and ask how to defend a take down, almost without fail your answer will be either footwork to maintain the gap and /or move off the line, or sprawl (which in and of itself is a form of footwork designed to prevent the centre of mass being taken behind the base by throwing the base rapidly backwards and lowering the centre of gravity). Of course you can have the best footwork in the world but if you don't spot the change in level you'll never get to use it.

[Frost]

The arms play an important role in preventing an opponent from pursuing the attack either through maintaining distance, punishing the attempt or both, but without footwork the hands mean nothing. Go to any mma gym or wrestling gym and ask how to defend a take down, almost without fail your answer will be either footwork to maintain the gap and /or move off the line, or sprawl (which in and of itself is a form of footwork designed to prevent the centre of mass being taken behind the base by throwing the base rapidly backwards and lowering the centre of gravity). Of course you can have the best footwork in the world but if you don't spot the change in level you'll never get to use it.

Actually they will tell you not to shoot unless you are in arm touching range, ie in clinch range or striking range by which time the arms play a big part, long range shots only work against people in upright stances who get in to close and have aggressive direct footwork…what are does that sound like….
And without arms footwork and sprawling means nothing, sprawl on me without using your arms and im reshooting, sitting out and taking the back etc

[wingchunIan]

Actually they will tell you not to shoot unless you are in arm touching range, ie in clinch range or striking range by which time the arms play a big part, long range shots only work against people in upright stances who get in to close and have aggressive direct footwork…what are does that sound like….

defending a take down once contact is made is IME far easier than one where it has not and whilst the arms play a huge part at such range it is again the feet that are the key. Whether the shoot comes from range or from close I seek to punish the takedown attempt by strikes and seek to control the head / centre of gravity with my non striking arm but without footwork I still end up on my backside (something that I have huge personal experience of)

And without arms footwork and sprawling means nothing, sprawl on me without using your arms and im reshooting, sitting out and taking the back etc

I never said the arms wouldn't be used at all only that by far the most important element is the footwork, fwiw an aquaintance who was a very good wrestler used to teach that the key to a good sprawl and for that matter pins was the ability to use bodyweight against the opponent. He would frequently sprawl using his chest as the only significant contact point when showing off.

On a seperate note Jose Aldo has one of the best takedown defences in UFC and the key according to far more knowledgable sources than I, is alledgedly his footwork and the fact that he never retreats or advances in straight lines. Ultimately if the guy in the clip had spotted the change in level and used footwork to angle off the line of the attack he wouldn't have ended up on the canvas at that point in the fight. Easier said than done (from experience) but effective none the less

[Frost]

defending a take down once contact is made is IME far easier than one where it has not and whilst the arms play a huge part at such range it is again the feet that are the key. Whether the shoot comes from range or from close I seek to punish the takedown attempt by strikes and seek to control the head / centre of gravity with my non striking arm but without footwork I still end up on my backside (something that I have huge personal experience of)

I never said the arms wouldn't be used at all only that by far the most important element is the footwork, fwiw an aquaintance who was a very good wrestler used to teach that the key to a good sprawl and for that matter pins was the ability to use bodyweight against the opponent. He would frequently sprawl using his chest as the only significant contact point when showing off.

On a seperate note Jose Aldo has one of the best takedown defences in UFC and the key according to far more knowledgable sources than I, is alledgedly his footwork and the fact that he never retreats or advances in straight lines. Ultimately if the guy in the clip had spotted the change in level and used footwork to angle off the line of the attack he wouldn't have ended up on the canvas at that point in the fight. Easier said than done (from experience) but effective none the less

Actually it’s the hips not the footwork that’s the key to defending a takedown (and to winning in the clinch), and whilst anyone when grappling against a lesser opponent can defend just using their hips and bodyweight and show off its still not the way things are done

Defending a takedown is easier once contact is made? You mean once they are in correct range and they have a handle on you to set up the takedown? are you really saying this??? Seriously ?? because I have grappled for over a decade, trained with some of the best wrestlers out there and they all say to make contact (or be in range to make contact if its mma, and even they they are making contact with you, its just fleeting contact with punches) before shooting or attempting a takedown, seriously who have you trained with who says this??

jose aldos excellent takedown defense comes from peoples fear of getting destroyed by his strikes on the way in and in the clinch rather than his excellent footwork, people like Faber, Brown etc didn’t try to take him down until they were hurt because of the following
a) His excellent wrestling training under kenny johsnon a master of teaching strikers how to avoid being taken down in the clinch and off shots (he has worked with BJ Penn, Anderson Sila, Paul Daley as well as aldo…..if you are lucky enough to train with him you will see how good he is) which when combined with his thai clinch skills mean people got punished badly for trying to clinch with him (ala brown)
b) His superb leg kicks which takes away his opponents ability to explode (see his fight with Faber)
c) His long punching style: powerful long hooks and uppercuts, and also knees (see every fight he has ever had)
d) His explosive ability to hurt with ever strike (see his 5 first round knockouts in the WEC which included a double flying knee, a knee counter to a shot etc)
e) His natural strength and athletic ability (see his shucking off of mike brown in the clinch when he won the title)
f) His BJJ skills which are among the best in the world in his weight class

His footwork was a part of the equation as it always is, circling out and moving back and to the side is always a good idea, as is not over committing to attacks but not the only (or even major) part

In wrestling your 3 lines of defence are head, hands and arms, and hips

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Paddington;1210032]

I think I share your view here, Joy. If only these forums were moderated properly so that useful discussion could occur more often. I am noticing that most just take their conversations elsewhere, which is a shame cause it kills these boards.

As a moderator ( though not of the WC area by choice) I would like to comment on this.
We try our best to allow a certain freedom for posters since every poster has their own posting style and, for the most part, it works well.
The other forums, like the Southern forum, the Health and fitness one, the Taiji one, the Mantis one, heck in the OT one, are typically, fine.
It is the WC forum that has the most issues and the reason, quite frankly, is YOU GUYS ( the people that post in the WC forum).
You guys have some serious issues and turn every thread into a lineage-***** measuring war and quite frankly, its pretty sad.
You WC guys have some deep rooted issues and it comes out in your posting style, you guys attack each other like you found out that one of you were adopted or worse, you guys treat WC almost like a religion and you are all a bunch of fundamentalists and only YOUR WAY is the RIGHT way ( to WC salvation as it were).
In short, the issue in the WC forum is NOT the moderation, its the posters.
Grow up you guys, seriously.

Please note that I am not addressing this to ANY poster in particular but to ALL WC posters in general.

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Frost;1210072]

Actually it’s the hips not the footwork that’s the key to defending a takedown (and to winning in the clinch), and whilst anyone when grappling against a lesser opponent can defend just using their hips and bodyweight and show off its still not the way things are done

are you sure you haven't been watching too much of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTQXYeTV7a8

this is a circular argument as if you don't move the feet there is nothing that you can do with your hips that will prevent you being dumped on the floor.

Defending a takedown is easier once contact is made? You mean once they are in correct range and they have a handle on you to set up the takedown? are you really saying this??? Seriously ?? because I have grappled for over a decade, trained with some of the best wrestlers out there and they all say to make contact (or be in range to make contact if its mma, and even they they are making contact with you, its just fleeting contact with punches) before shooting or attempting a takedown, seriously who have you trained with who says this??

sound advice and the closer the range the less time there is to react to the takedown (as in the single and double legs evidenced in the clip) attempt however with contact the change of level can be felt whereas from out of contact (even if within range) the level change has to be observed. Of course in contact range there are a whole other array of throws, trips etc available to a grappler that are not available at range which do indeed increase the liklihood of ending up on the floor. FWIW my comments are based on my own experiences not on what someone has told me so maybe my opinions will change over time.

With regards to Jose Aldo all of the factors that you mention of course come into play however watch his recent fights and listen to the commentary. The comment I made was taken from a commentator who has fought and coached at the top of MMA, of course he is probably wrong and you are right. Maybe you should think about calling the UFC and asking for a slot on the payroll.

Its friday afternoon and I can't take this discusion too seriously

[Wayfaring]

A grappler's hand fighting would have nothing to do with defending that takedown. It was a shoot to the legs aiming to achieve a double or single. Fighting for hand position is only relevant from a clinch / contact start point. To defend a shoot you don't try to control the arms whatever art you study. The shoot uses the legs to cover distance and propel the body beyond the opponent's centre of gravity, in return it has to be defended by moving the legs and the centre of gravity, aka moving off the line or sprawling.

Most clueless post on grappling I've read in a long while.