This is a tired old argument, MMA has been around for over 20 years in the west, and the number of traditional fighters taking part is going down not up, think of the early UFCs you had wing chun, 5 animals karate and lord knows what else taking part, now in the UFC you have cung lee ( a wrestler and TKD guy who went straight into Sanda with that background) big country and that’s about it. Yes people have to cross train but look at what they are cross training in, western wrestling, BJJ and thai, non are taking sanda for stand up let alone wing chun or hung gar
And the larping sc
hools are as popular as it was in the 90’s, wing chun can be found everywhere as can tai chi etc endless clips from hundreds of schools can be found on youtube doing line drills forms and 2 step stuff and still teach the deadly strikes as real self defence…. not much in the way of sparring can be found unless its CLF…..sanda outside of the east is virtually non existent, and the numbers of kung fu schools taking part in kick boxing, MMA or K1 can be counted on one hand
I think that before the formation of MMA gyms that the whole TMA background matter far more than it does now.
Sure guys with a TMA background have a better core then those without any training BUT in some cases it can be a hindrance.
What I think needs/should happen is the adaption of MMA training in TMA, more than taking TMA into the MMA arena.
Lets be honest, very few people that do ANY MA wanna be fighters in the ring.
That said, every MA SHOULD be able to fight and fight well AND, IMO< be able to deal with what will be the "typical" fight out there and as MMA continues to grow, that is what they will be dealing with.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Where are you based? because in the UK the amateur scene is dominated by Thai schools, BJJ schools and MMA schools….. the few karate schools that are involved are those which had already moved towards kickboxing, I cant remember seeing a single wado ryu, Shotokan etc fighter anywhere near the events my teammates enter, same for the TCMA clubs and the Korean ones, when I started out in KSBO a decade ago (no head shot amateur rules) there were a few karate guys (kokashinki go figure) but these days three’s not a lot around the comps from traditional backgrounds only
The few that are around david rogers, alan Orrs guys are few and far between and they are by and large the schools that were already competing in sanda etc back in the day, it’s a natural evolution form them, but you don’t see many clubs coming though doing this and the vast majority of TMA schools aren’t interested in developing fighters for the cage and wont ever be
People take TCMA for other reasons than getting into the ring, which is fine, but when teachers use that excuse for the reason theirs no clips of their students fighting or even sparring in house but can post endless clips of their students doing forms, weapon forms, 2 man forms, pad work, two man applications) it does make you wonder about just what they are training for and what they are selling to their students
I'm optimistic about this happening, I may be crazy...but I know traditional schools in my area that have fight teams, their guys seem to do as well as anyone elses'. I'm seeing Karate and JKD guys showing up at events, even Capoeira. Sure they're amateurs, but so are the vast majority of mma fighters.
The traditional schools that fight are certainly a minority; and only a small percentage of their students do...but there's definitely interest in it. If this keeps happening we'll start seeing some fighters. Most won't make it, but some will; the same as everywhere.
As to sanshou fighting being rare in the west, it's sad but true...but interestingly, some BJJ schools here have hosted sanshou events in areas that have NO kung fu at all. I guess they just wanted their guys to fight in that rule set.
I live in northern New York...unfortunately I have to travel pretty far to downstate or western NY to find these events...my region doesn't have much going on. Some of the downstate shows I've been to are hosted by Karate schools. Lots of BJJ and MT guys of course, but lots of Karate fighters as well. I also know a local Hung Gar teacher who has a fight team, they compete in kick boxing...I never trained with him, but from what i gather his guys do alright.
Pro MMA is still illegal here. (We're one of only 3 states.) After 10 years of no legal MMA shows, the first sanctioned amateur event in NY happened last year. Apparently amateur was never illegal and no-one read the law close enough. Before this, guys were traveling to PA or Ohio to fight; now AM shows are springing up in many cities.
Go back 15 years ago, there was nothing at all for full contact in much of upstate except Kyokushin; and that was few and far between. (There may have been MT or kickboxing in some cities then; but if so I was unaware.
Don't get me wrong Frost, traditional fighters are certainly a minority here too, but the fact that I'm seeing some interest and some guys getting in the ring gives me hope.
In my experience (and I confess, I have a weird lens) you can't throw a rock and not hit a TCMA master in China. I think Wong Kar Wai is just trying to position himself as the bannerman for TCMA, just to promote his film.
Very true. The ring (or cage) appeals only to a very specific set. Personally, that was never my goal. I'm a weapons guy, by nature, so MMA holds very little for me as a practice.
I don't agree with this. I think MA can have a much wider range to appeal as a health practice. Take Tai Chi for example - it might well have the world's largest underground population of practitioners when you factor in all of the senior centers and such. Do I expect them to be able to "to fight and fight well"? Not at all. I feel there's plenty of room for mediocre practitioners. Frankly, that's what most people are - they practice as a hobby and they have fun with it. Honestly, no other passtime imposes such rigorous requirements as the martial arts. Imagine the same standards for golf or tennis players. No wonder we have such neurotic growth issues.
Gene Ching
Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
Author of Shaolin Trips
Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart
thai boxing is really due to popularity. it has nothing to due with the validity of sanda being a capable training format for developing striking. chinese fighters and thai fighters consistently fight each other in their respective venues and both parties fair well. The simple fact of the matter is that for either muay thai, or sanda, either needs to cross train for mma, both would be worthless alone, but both are quite capable methods of developing a powerful stand up fighter. The sanda method is a great transition for cross training in wrestling, as they already grapple/throw in the format.
people seem to forget the early resistance to the populartiy and move of the mma scene in many parts of asia. there are people who are definitely worthy of note in regards to striking that the majority of mma people have never even heard of. doesnt change the fact that some of these guys are beasts. keep in mind that the traditional arts are from asia, and are practiced through out asia to a greater degree than anywhere else in the world. we are working primarily off of western standards in these discussions.
what you are seeing in asia for the most part are people who are tapering in their fighting career making the change at the end of it. in essence, most of asia is showing up late to the party. where as in the west, people you see that are of note have started their careers in mma, and typically going the most favored popular route to do so.
here is a good example and one of my favorite fighters. guys like that who, late in his career are making the switch, pass those skills on to the next generation, but have them START with mma, utilizing sanda for the stand up and bringing in bjj and shuai jiao coaches....well just wait a fighter's generation, and see what the world gives us.
Sanda Muay Thai Challenge 03'
Bao Li Gao is 5 ft 10.5 inches tall and fights at 85 kg or 185 lbs (in the AOWFC). He was the King of San Da champion in 2002 and 2003, IKF Super Middleweight champion in San Shou, and the biggest winner of the 2003 Muay Thai Vs San Da Challenge held in Bangkok, Thailand
Check out the Beijing Jiu-Jitsu Academy.
Here is what Academy Director Andy Pi said about how his Team Art of War Trains
"they were provided with accommodation, food, a salary, and training. To improve their Brazilian jiu-jitsu skills they brought in a black belt from Brazil, Pedro Schmall. For their stand-up skills they train San Da (Chinese kickboxing) with the Chinese national team. For their takedown skills they train with the Chinese national wrestling and Judo team, and for their strength and conditioning they hired a national weightlifting athlete who also will be performing in the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games. These are full-time fighter, which means their office is the gym. They train 2 times per day, 6 day per week."
For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.
No thai boxing is popular due to its effeciveness
We aren;t just talking about MMA in China and Pro Sanda we were talking about traditional Chinese arts in MMA there is a difference.
You keep bringing up sanda which is fine but sanda isn’t what 90% of TCMA practise is it? And its not HOW 90% of TCMA practise either is it? They practise hung gar, wing chun, mantis, long fist Bagua etc they do forms, post training, weapons conditioning stance work etc which is not howe the pro sanda teams train
Where are these arts in the cage, or even in the ring? What is seen in pro sanda is largely Chinese wrestling and kicking with western boxing hands (Ross has often spoke about this and the creation of the sanda programme when he was on here) they don’t use hung gar, wing chun, mantis or long fist do they?
If we were just talking and sanda and MMA i can see your point but TCMA isnt just sanda is it
.I don't agree with this. I think MA can have a much wider range to appeal as a health practice. Take Tai Chi for example - it might well have the world's largest underground population of practitioners when you factor in all of the senior centers and such. Do I expect them to be able to "to fight and fight well"? Not at all. I feel there's plenty of room for mediocre practitioners. Frankly, that's what most people are - they practice as a hobby and they have fun with it. Honestly, no other passtime imposes such rigorous requirements as the martial arts. Imagine the same standards for golf or tennis players. No wonder we have such neurotic growth issues
A fair point but no one is expecting or demanding that the typical practitioner compete at the elite level or any level really BUT one should expect that the typical practitioner be able to ( with degrees of effectiveness) Use the MA as he trains it, yes?
A typical tennis player is expected to hit the ball over the net and a typical golf player is expected to get the ball in the hole and so, a typical practitioner of a fighting art ( an art that teaches how to fight) would be able to fight, right?
No expects a taiji practitioner to fight when he/she does NOT train for such ( no sparring, no drills, no conditioning, etc) BUT one should expect that of a MA that does do those things, yes?
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Thank you so much... yeah, the Upper Darby Royals (High School) team won the central league Championship last night. So very proud of them all!
Here are some videos of takedowns, trips, thows, grappling, striking, etc from our mma sparring sessions, nothing too fancy just some random clips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7DqFEOEvdM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OCziSftrcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=080htGiBMwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyJqxLFUDZ0
Last edited by pateticorecords; 02-13-2013 at 11:47 AM.
Tom
Integrated Kung Fu Academy
Kung Fu - Kickboxing - MMA -Self Defense
Media, PA -Delaware County
To some degree, but it's a matter of level. This is a bit of an extreme example, but take the special olympics - both tennis and golf (and even tkd) are included. They can hit the ball over-the-net/in-the-hole and the tkd players can 'fight' well enough to compete, but does that meet your definition of being 'able to fight'?
So by that argument, a lot of taiji practitioners are not martial artists. You can draw that line in the sand, but it'll only frustrate you. They will call themselves martial artists, so what are you going to do? Visit all the senior centers in the USA and break their signs?
I have no objections to martial arts for health (in fact, I find that to be baseline) or for performance (it is an 'art' after all). It's like saying pop stars suck (they do mostly, but sales numbers are sales numbers). Only fighters fight for 'all martial artists have to be able to fight' and it's a fight that they lose because pop culture doesn't define MA so. These expectations only lead to frustrations.
Gene Ching
Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
Author of Shaolin Trips
Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart
YES !!!So by that argument, a lot of taiji practitioners are not martial artists. You can draw that line in the sand, but it'll only frustrate you. They will call themselves martial artists, so what are you going to do? Visit all the senior centers in the USA and break their signs?
Who's with me !?!?!?!
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !