i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
you can total turn SevenStar into a stretch too. badumcha!
For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.
Oh and don't forget this stance!
For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.
That was my fav line from Forbidden Kingdom.
That being said, I use Horse Stance applications every day. I take a dump every day. Sometimes more.
It even works in the street.
Gene Ching
Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
Author of Shaolin Trips
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It may not be indicative of an intelligent use of your training time, but certainly you must know whenever you do a new style workout, that you have never done before, you have soreness in muscles you normally don't. I don't think it's a stretch to say that what happened was you worked out muscles you normally don't.
As I mentioned, Gung Bu and Pu Bu are used as stretches. In martial arts as stances; but also in various aerobic workouts and sports. They aren't intentionally working a stance, but they are certainly doing the same thing. Horse stance isn't the only stance.
I'm just trying to find a balance between using stance work in a beneficial way and not taking it to the point of diminishing returns. I kind of agree with Lucas that it's much more beneficial to a beginner than to someone who has been around a while. But I also feel working stances does help your rooting, adjusting to different situations, defending take downs, (not by holding the stance, but by the ability to transition smoothly), ect.
I do appreciate your input though.
Your body gets better at what you do and worse at what you don't do.
If you do stance training your body gets better at holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles.
If you lift weights that gradually get heavier over time* (periodization), your muscles eventually becomes capable of generating more tension and lifting more weight (you get stronger).
Your body does not become capable of generating more tension if you do stance training because there is no increase of resistance and therefore nothing for your body to adapt to (beyond the first 2 minutes or so for an untrained individual).
If you lift weights that gradually get heavier over time, your body does not get better at holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles because you are not holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles.
Stronger muscles are useful for things like kicking harder, grappling with an opponent (yes, I know using too much strength is bad, but sometimes you have to brute force it), and picking up heavy boxes.
Being able to hold a contraction at a specific angle for a period of time is useful for things like holding stances and doing TCMA training and forms.
Your training should be based on your goals. If you do a lot of TMA type stuff then stance training should be part of your training program. Just don't be under the mistaken assumption that it's developing things that it's not, like maximal strength.
*I greatly over simplified this concept, and I mean with a proper strength training program
"If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar
"I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir
<BombScare> i beat the internet
<BombScare> the end guy is hard.
Yes, it means you worked out your muscles in a new way.
But not that it was a good way.
People get caught up in changing their workouts every few weeks to "keep their muscles guessing" and they use the increase in soreness as an indicator of that.
You can do a stupid workout that doesn't help you at all and still be sore the next day Take a powerlifter who can bench 350 pounds and have him do sets of flat dumbbell presses to failure with 15 pound dumbbells. He'll probably knock out dozens and dozens of reps and be super sore the next day, but was that helpful to him? No.
Fair enough.As I mentioned, Gung Bu and Pu Bu are used as stretches. In martial arts as stances; but also in various aerobic workouts and sports. They aren't intentionally working a stance, but they are certainly doing the same thing. Horse stance isn't the only stance.
It's good that you're questioning things.I'm just trying to find a balance between using stance work in a beneficial way and not taking it to the point of diminishing returns. I kind of agree with Lucas that it's much more beneficial to a beginner than to someone who has been around a while. But I also feel working stances does help your rooting, adjusting to different situations, defending take downs, (not by holding the stance, but by the ability to transition smoothly), ect.
I do appreciate your input though.
Stance training is useful to the point that it benefits your MA training, or to the point that you enjoy it.
In other words, if you need to hold a horse stance for 5 minutes for your training, then train to be able to do so. Doing only barbell squats will not get you to that point. But in this situation is there a reason for you to train to the point of holding it for 30 minutes? Not really, unless you want to.
If you want to be stronger, train some sort of resistance exercise where the weight generally increases over time. Stance training will not get you to that point. But in this situation is there a reason for you to train to the point of squatting 500 pounds? Not necessarily, unless you want to be super strong.
And then there's endurance (as in like, not getting tired in a fight), and that's another subject entirely.
Last edited by IronFist; 02-27-2013 at 11:00 PM.
"If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar
"I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir
<BombScare> i beat the internet
<BombScare> the end guy is hard.
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
Part as a warm up is fine, bobbing and weaving is sports specific in that you do it exactly as you would in a fight, the stance isn’t held for time or moved slowly through its dynamic as you said, as is training the wrestling shot which is also sports specific
And wall sits are done for mental strength not really strength building correct?
The difference is as you say they use it for ancillary training, its sports specific and not the main focus
The range where strength is developed is probably the key to stance training. It's not about over all strength development like doing squats - it's about developing the ability to hold that low stance comfortably for long periods of time. This skill is particularly useful for the throwing arts where it's better for you to be in that low posture to both get under your opponent's center of gravity and to keep them from getting below yours. The main benefit of this type of stance training is that as you gain the ability to hold these postures, you'll find that you exert less strength to do them, this allows you to "free up your hips" and relax - again this is very important to the throwing arts, but it's also useful for the striking arts. My teacher amazes everyone he meets with his ability to apply mantis. When showing the applications and trying to teach us to do what he does, he always says to relax the hips - something that students never really can do thus they can't achieve his results with the technique. I observed that this ability actually comes from his ability to maintain low postures comfortably - ie leg strength from stance training - something that westerners just don't want to do.
Rotational force is being developed as well as core strength AND force absorption and stabilization in the arms , mind you medicine ball rebounds mind be better to develop rotation force, but both are very good things for strikers to use if you havent got someone to actually hit
I didn't realize horse stance was the main focus in gong fu either.
Beijing style has a gong bu stance that is trained statically. gong bu chuang yao/chang yao something like that. Any case, it has little to do with the hamstrings. I'll post a picture later when I have some time.