Hong Quan anyone?

[LFJ]

Wow!

I didn't know about that one.

Well that would definately seem to be CHXYM then. He must have practiced Mogou pai and modified it for his needs. It must have been the style of his soldiers.

It is always a village style practiced in song shan in several places. I suspect it became shaolin syllabus later on because it was popular in the countryside. It is practiced all over the countryside in Song shan but is not in shaolin temple lineages.

This would explain so much about why the technique is not Shaolin temple standard, why Qi Xing quan is so different from the Shaolin Qi xing, I think this would really make sense.

Do we know any more about when exactly this was?

The way I heard was just that the CHQXYM sect was "related to" Li Jiyu and Mogou, which I took to mean it must have been something from Mogou and that Li Jiyu just practiced it. I then thought, maybe Mogou XHQ's original name was CHXYMQ, named for their sect. But then, possibly because of its connection to Li Jiyu and the massacre of the monks, Mogou let the name go so as not to have their sect associated with that event. Sort of exchanged names with Shaolin when there was the opportunity. The sect might be something to inquire about in Mogou, tactfully of course.

[RenDaHai]

The way I heard was just that the CHQXYM sect was "related to" Li Jiyu and Mogou, which I took to mean it must have been something from Mogou and that Li Jiyu just practiced it. I then thought, maybe Mogou XHQ's original name was CHXYMQ, named for their sect. But then, possibly because of its connection to Li Jiyu and the massacre of the monks, Mogou let the name go so as not to have their sect associated with that event. Sort of exchanged names with Shaolin when there was the opportunity. The sect might be something to inquire about in Mogou, tactfully of course.

The link between Mogou XHQ and normal XHQ is too strong, it is definately old Shaolin XHQ. I'm thinking more along the lines that LiJiyu leanred the mogou style then mixed it with his material and taught it to his sect and this variant survived with the name of the sect CHXYM.

OR possibly because the link was known when Mogou XHQ was returned to Shaolin they renamed it for the famous sect.

If it was the style they practiced, then wouldn't it be somehow disrespectful for Shaolin to practice CHXYM since this sect killed their monks?

[RenDaHai]

1640 -- 1643

Li Jiyu was a military graduate of Dengfeng.

Chen Wangting was actually in Li Jiyu's rebellion army, hiding from a death that he caused during an examination. After the rebellion was put down, he went back to his village. So Chen Wangting had plenty of time to learn xiao hong quan (nothing from Da Hong Quan sets is found in Chen Taijiquan) and other Shaolin influenced stuff from that area.

Cool, cheers Sal.

I don't have a video of it, but I learned in Mogou their 'Lao' hong quan which is a partener form to their XHQ. This is also very interesting and has a few very similar techniques with Chen Taiji lao jia er lu

[LFJ]

Looking at some dates, Chen Wangting (1580–1660) and Ji Longfeng (1588-1662) were contemporaries. Which puts Li Jiyu and Ji Longfeng at about the same time as well. Li Jiyu may have been a Mogou practitioner who became a student of Ji Longfeng.

We've known that the Xinyi (and Xinyiba) related material in Shaolin, as well as the development of Xingyiquan, came out of interactions with Ji Longfeng and his 'rooster style'.

It then stands to reason that if Changhuxinyimen was the name of Li Jiyu's sect and its representative boxing set, and his old sanctuary was in Mogou village, then he is the man who mixed Mogou Xiaohongquan with Ji Longfeng's Xinyi rooster style, hence the current name and style.

That would definitely explain things like Mogou XHQ and original Qixingquan that is more like traditional Shaolin being altered into their more 'rooster style'.

That would also explain why the current patterns are so identical between CHXYMQ and Mogou XHQ, because it was not that long ago that this took place. Just over 360 years or so.

It is strange though that the gongfu of a sect that killed the monks would become one of their most popular styles in and around Shaolin, but then again maybe not? It must be pretty lihai.

[LFJ]

Do you know how many sets they have in 長護心意門 or any the name of the sets?

It appears that this Songshan sect of Li Jiyu is a mixture of Mogou village Shaolin and Ji Longfeng's Xinyi rooster, basically by taking existing Mogou sets and altering them with Ji Longfeng's material, since it wasn't really a system anyway.

There is certainly Changhuxinyimenquan and Qixingquan as the main muzi sets, a Liuhequan duilian, and there may have been something with Datongbiquan of the Nanyuan, but we're kind of looking into that now.

[LFJ]

As far as the Nanyuan Datongbiquan somehow being connected with this Changhuxinyimen sect, there are a lot of technique similarities to the CHXYMQ set.

First of all, at the very opening and later before qixing - danbian there is an action called 'laoniu juancao' (old ox rolls up [eats] grass) which looks like shooing chickens, similar to the action repeated in CHXYMQ, for which it is also named the 'chicken shooing' form.

There is also a large reliance on cross hands and variations throughout both sets. But most obvious is the posture called 'dingxi' (fixed knee position). This is a twisted sort of xubu where the back of the left, front knee is set on top of the right knee, left hand guarding at the right shoulder, right hand guarding at the left knee.

The thing about this posture is that actually, at Shi Deyang's school it is not done as in his instructionals, but is done in a high Xiebu, stepping onto the lead leg and raising the rear heel, and the hands use the fengshou (wind hand) aka. rooster claw shape!

I always took it as an embellishment, but upon comparing the rest of the technique set, it is very much similar to CHXYMQ, more so than I ever realized before.

I've also just realized that Dong Cheng's Tongbiquan theories were borrowed in Xinyi Liuhequan via Ji Longfeng, and because it had not yet been created, the 'Xinyi' he taught at Shaolin was actually Tongbi and rooster elements he had newly designed after witnessing a c0ckfight there.

So, that may be our connection between CHXYM and Shaolin Nanyuan Datongbiquan. Li Jiyu did make "friends" with the monks to learn their wugong before massacring them. So his system in the Changhuxinyi sect (men), as a Mogou practitioner who learned at Shaolinsi and was a student of Ji Longfeng, is made up of Mogoupai and Xinyipai (Tongbi + Rooster).

By the way, the xiexing as done in CHXYMQ with full arms almost in a straight line front to back is called 'shizi tongbi' (cross full arms).

[RenDaHai]

Do you know how many sets they have in 長護心意門 or any the name of the sets?

Sets in this school;

CHXYM, QiXing quan, GuanDOng quan, DaTong bi, WuXing Shi Liu fa, Liuhe quan dui lian.

All of the above forms have versions that are not CHXYM. But there is a DaTongbi practiced at Tagou that is the same QuanPu as the standard one, but uses techniques from CHXYM.

Then the standard QiXing quan IS the CHXYM version. There is also another qixing quan which is the same sequence but different techniques.

Before I thought the above forms were just Tagous variation, but I have seen GuanDong quan done in another place also with CHXYM techniques and I have seen versions without. Now I think maybe all these forms that have a CHXYM version are from the CHXYM sect.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Acccck! I have to bring this information about these people into my Origins of Xin/Xingyi Quan chapter.

I have pages of information in that chapter that would support your ideas LFJ about Ji Longfeng in my book. Perhaps I should make a PDF of that chapter and let you read it and in return you can help me finish that chapter so that it incorporates that insights that are now coming through about Li Jiwu and Ji Longfeng.

Also, guys, think about the story of Chen TJQ being created, Chen village always claims that Chen Wangting changed his Chen Village Pao Quan into what later became knowns as Chen Taiji Quan, AFTER he met up with this supposed "Jiang Fa" (who he really was is a mystery" who WAS an officer IN LIYU's REBEL ARMY and taught Chen some new material that softened the Chen village martial arts into something new.
Which means what? That he taught Chen a martial art such as Tongbei Quan?
It IS known that Tongbei Quan was an early influence on Chen TJQ. so this info would be the missing link that proves what Jiang Fa really taught!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Looking at some dates, Chen Wangting (1580–1660) and Ji Longfeng (1588-1662) were contemporaries. Which puts Li Jiyu and Ji Longfeng at about the same time as well. Li Jiyu may have been a Mogou practitioner who became a student of Ji Longfeng.

We've known that the Xinyi (and Xinyiba) related material in Shaolin, as well as the development of Xingyiquan, came out of interactions with Ji Longfeng and his 'rooster style'.

It then stands to reason that if Changhuxinyimen was the name of Li Jiyu's sect and its representative boxing set, and his old sanctuary was in Mogou village, then he is the man who mixed Mogou Xiaohongquan with Ji Longfeng's Xinyi rooster style, hence the current name and style.

That would definitely explain things like Mogou XHQ and original Qixingquan that is more like traditional Shaolin being altered into their more 'rooster style'.

That would also explain why the current patterns are so identical between CHXYMQ and Mogou XHQ, because it was not that long ago that this took place. Just over 360 years or so.

It is strange though that the gongfu of a sect that killed the monks would become one of their most popular styles in and around Shaolin, but then again maybe not? It must be pretty lihai.

I don't see how Li Jiyu could have been a direct student of Ji Longfeng, there are too many reasons why they would not have been at the same place at the same time, BUT he could have learned Ji's material from Shaolin instead. Pretty much we can be sure that if he didn't learn Ji Longfeng's material, they both Ji and Li learned Tongbei Quan at some point. Especially since it is pretty well know that his officer Jian Fa taught tongbei to Chen Wangting.

[LFJ]

The 'rooster' techniques are attributed to Ji Longfeng, and one thing we can clearly see is that it is definitely a defining characteristic of the Changhuxinyimen sect, throughout all of its boxing sets. So Li Jiyu surely learned this, if not directly from Ji Longfeng when he was in the area, then from Shaolin when Li interacted with them. It is also said Chen Wangting accompanied Li Jiyu in studying at Shaolin Yonghuatang (Southern Courtyard), learning Xinyiba skills. So it must have already been in Shaolin, and that's where Li got it.

[RenDaHai]

Which means what? That he taught Chen a martial art such as Tongbei Quan?
It IS known that Tongbei Quan was an early influence on Chen TJQ. so this info would be the missing link that proves what Jiang Fa really taught!

That would make sense.

Also later on HongDong Tongbei quan is mixed with early Chen martial arts, I would assume in earlier times they knew their origin styles.

LaoJia Er Lu is even now called Pao Chui right?

I mean, in terms of old Chen MA we only have LaoJia Yi Lu and Er Lu right? The others are all newer creations right?

[Royal Dragon]

I am very interested in this legend. It's a gap in my Zhao Kuang Yin Research. Can you elaborate?

Its a good summary,

But I don't see any need to change our currently accepted version of things.

I think Hong Quan was imported to Shaolin in Song.

500 years ago or so a manifestation of JinNaluo took the then extant Shaolin styles to Mogou village. This is what XHQ looked like at the time, it remained more unchanged in the village because they were not trying to refine it.

Then XHQ evolved in Shaolin and was refined, emphasizing the palms and simplifying the movements. At which point NuoTianFa was healed in Ruan Village and in gratitude taught them the then extant Shaolin Nanyuan styles.

This was still form SHaolin temple this Nanyuan version the current set gradually evolved.

As to the XHQ in the XiYuan Pai, this either changed its name to CHXYM so as not to confuse with their XHQ OR it vanished and then CHXYM was created from interaction with Mogou Village, again not wanting another XHQ they used a pre existing name (CHXYM).

So Shaolin temple is still responsible for XHQ but the village styles are off shoots, frozen in time.

Luotuo village hong quan is then an off shoot from some other point, more recently looking at it.



It should be noted however Luotuoyuans claims are the boldest. Their village is also the origin of the popular Taizu ChangQuan set. They claim they learned it in Song from ZhaoKuanYins armies in Shanxi province. Then 7-800 years ago many people in Henan died and their family moved there from Shanxi. Then they interaced with Shaolin (which may have already had a similar set since it was taught to a large army in song). If they are correct Taizu Chang Quan is the military style responsible for much of the current styles.



As to the origin of Hong QUan, I think Sal is our resident expert. I have forgotten, though my master always told me to remember the names of ZHaoKuanYins teachers. There were two of them. They are responsible in some legends for the origin of our XHQ. Later they told him [ZKY] to go to Shaolin where he meets with yet another manifestation of JinNaLuo. There is a great fairy tale of their meeting. I will have to record it in full.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok guys, I have a question, on a more zoomed out, and larger scope (you'll see my AKTS influence here)

When it comes to

Body mechanics
Catalog of techniques
Footwork
Entrance strategies
Management of the opponents energies and motion.

Are there any significant differences between the content of any of these styles?

I am not talking about form choreography or flavor, or who made what when. I am discussing the core central components of all these styles.

Do any of these sets/systems have anything in them that makes them significantly different (not just a trick technique or concept, or two), skills set or technology wise that makes them uniquely different arts? Or are they just different mixes and matches of the same material all choreographed in different containers that are passed in different scholastic curriculums?

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4kHI39EyPU

After talking about all kind of different versions of Shaolin Hong Boxing. What about this one ?


Best regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4kHI39EyPU

After talking about all kind of different versions of Shaolin Hong Boxing. What about this one ?


Best regards,
Xian

Hey Xian,

This is just the most common Xiao Hong Quan, only it is done with WuGuLun Pai Shen Fa. It differes a little at the end but nothing significant. The other ones like Mogou pai are very very different in sequence, yet close enough to see similarites.