Nice clip

[GlennR]

What guyb is saying, I can only presume, is that there are a lot of us out there that, let's just say, drill our first jik gerk (that's straight/direct foot for those that don't know) kick against the wooden man around the knee area, preferably the inside of the knee joint itself. This is Wing Chun 101. Attacking the closest target with our longest weapon for destructive and end-game effect.

So you know of a competition that allows this intent?

I might be wrong but.......... MMA

Even in some Sanda comps I have been around, multiple strikes to the face were not allowed, nor handling the throat! Errr... another Wing Chun signature is linking punching rapidly into threes and takedowns from the neck and throat!

Can you see what I am saying?

Yes, that you dont like sparring or competing.

ANY competition requires adjustments, not only to our main focus and purpose of maiming opponenents, but it also compromises our very fundamental training that we like to drill and drill until it becomes second nature.

I actually agree with you here

In that respect I think anyone with half a brain will KNOW if they can handle themselves in a scrap, and even then the good guys will always try and not injure anyone too seriously

Define a scrap. Sudden attack , a true self defense situation...... maybe. A prolonged fight in a car park.... not so sure.

And seriously Spencer, if its self defense....... hurt him, a lot

[Frost]

And here is THE answer????

Define your understanding of Wing Chun 'Performance Level'?

What guyb is saying, I can only presume, is that there are a lot of us out there that, let's just say, drill our first jik gerk (that's straight/direct foot for those that don't know) kick against the wooden man around the knee area, preferably the inside of the knee joint itself. This is Wing Chun 101. Attacking the closest target with our longest weapon for destructive and end-game effect.

So you know of a competition that allows this intent?

Even in some Sanda comps I have been around, multiple strikes to the face were not allowed, nor handling the throat! Errr... another Wing Chun signature is linking punching rapidly into threes and takedowns from the neck and throat!

Can you see what I am saying?

ANY competition requires adjustments, not only to our main focus and purpose of maiming opponenents, but it also compromises our very fundamental training that we like to drill and drill until it becomes second nature. In that respect I think anyone with half a brain will KNOW if they can handle themselves in a scrap, and even then the good guys will always try and not injure anyone too seriously

And that simply just doesn't make sense to me at all.

Lol its 2013 and we are still getting this its too deadly to use in the cage crap…..vale tudo allowed everything bar throat stikes and eye gauges, and that still happened in some fights where were the wing chun guys then cleaning up? I thought the gracie challenges (everything including gauging allowed) and the early vale tudo events (everything allowed except throat strikes and eye gauges ….which BTW which still happened in some fights and still didn’t end the fights) had put this tired old wrong argument to bed. Because non of the too deadly to spar guys ever won these matches that should be a hint right there as to the effectiveness of sparring and competing outside your style

These days to answer your question in MMA direct kicks to the knee are allowed and guess what not one has ended a fight yet, and if you think kicking a non-moving piece of wood in anyway gets you ready for dealing with a moving target hitting you back LMAO

In thai you are allowed to round kick the knee (and I think front kick it) so comps are out there if anyone wants to enter

Head takedowns are also allowed you just don’t see them because they are low percentage against a moving opponent, they look good when your opponent doesn’t move but are low percentage when he does and that’s the simple truth

If you think you know you are prepared for the street because of your woodman training, your chisao and your playing with your students and yourself…well then good look is all im going to say. Of course competition requires changes to your training it’s a trade off, that trade off being you get to actually try your best non leathal stuff for real against a moving resisting opponent under agreed rules, so you at least know you can handle pressure and hurt someone trying his best to hurt you, which prepares people better for the deadly street…well go to your average local thai or MMA class, then your local wing chun class look at the students and honestly which ones would you prefer to pick a fight with??

Oh and which one is it exactly are you going to maim the guy or be a good guy and go against that core belief and try not to injury him too much???

Honestly it’s like a shaw brothers movie in here sometimes

[tc101]

And here is THE answer????

Define your understanding of Wing Chun 'Performance Level'?

What guyb is saying, I can only presume, is that there are a lot of us out there that, let's just say, drill our first jik gerk (that's straight/direct foot for those that don't know) kick against the wooden man around the knee area, preferably the inside of the knee joint itself. This is Wing Chun 101. Attacking the closest target with our longest weapon for destructive and end-game effect.

So you know of a competition that allows this intent?

Even in some Sanda comps I have been around, multiple strikes to the face were not allowed, nor handling the throat! Errr... another Wing Chun signature is linking punching rapidly into threes and takedowns from the neck and throat!

Can you see what I am saying?

ANY competition requires adjustments, not only to our main focus and purpose of maiming opponenents, but it also compromises our very fundamental training that we like to drill and drill until it becomes second nature. In that respect I think anyone with half a brain will KNOW if they can handle themselves in a scrap, and even then the good guys will always try and not injure anyone too seriously

And that simply just doesn't make sense to me at all.

I do understand what you are saying but I do not seem to be explaining myself clearly. Do you not agree that some type of performance is required to do wing chun? We cannot stand perfectly still and execute wing chun. The Jik gerk must be performed whether drill form sparring or whatever.

I have learned that there are different types and levels of performance. Drills from the simple to complex to learn and sharpen wing chun skills is a type of performance as we are practicing our wing chun when we perform those drills. Can we agree so far?

Some times we do a drill very well and some times we do not perform so good. This is an example of levels of performance. Can we agree there?

Sparring is a drill where we practice using our wing chun skills against an opponent who is fighting back and is practice applying our wing chun or to say it another way is when we practice our fighting. Like any other drill there are levels of performance here too. Can we agree to this?

I agree that various competitions have rules that limit what we can do. I do not see this as a problem since I see wing chun as having a range of skill that allow me to adapt to that within limits. In sparring I do not punch my opponent in the throat or poke him in the eye and there is an example of adapting wing chun to the situation. If I get into a fist fight I cannot kill or maim my opponent unless I want to go to jail. The law requires I use reasonable counter force so I need to adapt my ing chun to that situation as well.

I do not see the main focus of wing chun to maim or kill. If this were true it would make wing chun essentially useless and there is a great deal of examples of wing chun being used throughout the years by all kinds of people in all kinds of situations were maiming or death was not involved.

[JPinAZ]

And so you also can not answer my question... blah blah blah... Grow up... blah blah blah..

I'm not hear to play your silly games with you. If you are interested in discussion, please go back and answer some or even ONE of the questions you just quoted me asking - from your own POV. If you can't do that you're just trolling.

[JPinAZ]

In that respect I think anyone with half a brain will KNOW if they can handle themselves in a scrap, and even then the good guys will always try and not injure anyone too seriously

Perfect example of fantasy fu thinking.
I actually agree with you - only someone with half a brain would be ignorant enough to assume they can handle themselves in a scrap without ever actually testing it first it thru hard sparring and fighting, most preferably with people outside the comfort of your school.

And only someone with half a brain would think that in a real confrontation you aren't going to have to try injure your attacker to get them to stop attacking. simply more fantasy fu thinking.

Statements like this are often made by those that don't spar and have never been in a fight with anyone other than a complete scrub.

And that simply just doesn't make sense to me at all.

Me neither

[LoneTiger108]

These days to answer your question in MMA direct kicks to the knee are allowed and guess what not one has ended a fight yet, and if you think kicking a non-moving piece of wood in anyway gets you ready for dealing with a moving target hitting you back LMAO

So you are not a Wing Chun student then? Or haven't learnt anything on the wooden man to share a similar feeling to me? And as a fighter you never practise hitting the heavy bag? Use a speedball?

If you don't understand what I'm saying then that is fine.

I of course know that 'boards don't hit back' dude, I'm only giving an example of a drill that is done quite extensively as an entry level technique which would have to be sacrificed for most comps. I was not aware (because I have never seen one myself) that this type of intent in a kick was allowed in MMA, so thanks for sharing that.

If you think you know you are prepared for the street because of your woodman training, your chisao and your playing with your students and yourself…well then good look is all im going to say.

Yep. LUCK is what I think you meant. Perhaps all the fighting has affected your brain/hand coordination?

well go to your average local thai or MMA class, then your local wing chun class look at the students and honestly which ones would you prefer to pick a fight with??

Really shows your mentality here bully boy, so sorry that you have to big yourself up so much by putting others down...

Honestly it’s like a shaw brothers movie in here sometimes

Totally agree with that, but its just the nature of learning a Chinese Martial Art and at least it entertains us eh?

Spaghetti Western I would think is more your cuppa tea...

[LoneTiger108]

I'm not hear to play your silly games with you. If you are interested in discussion, please go back and answer some or even ONE of the questions you just quoted me asking - from your own POV. If you can't do that you're just trolling.

You mean one of the 3 questions that seem to all be asking the same thing??

Do I fight with anyone? No.

Do I spar with anyone outside my 'school'? No. I do not have a school but I would spar with anyone who asks.

And finally...

Anyway, I repear, yes fighting IS 'doing' wing chun, it's using it as it's intended. If I'm so wrong, please explain what is?

Yes you are so wrong, but no, why should I explain anything to you?

Why don't you tell everyone here how you came to this conclusion? After all you seem to really want to research why I say what I say so much, surely you can back up your own definitions of what doing Wing Chun is?? Why is Siu Lim Tau fighting?? That's a good starting point...

[LoneTiger108]

Perfect example of fantasy fu thinking.

I actually agree with you - only someone with half a brain would be ignorant enough to assume they can handle themselves in a scrap without ever actually testing it first it thru hard sparring and fighting, most preferably with people outside the comfort of your school.

Wah! You don't stop lol!

I never realized that everyone here knew my background and life story?

And I didn't realize that I had to explain all the bad episodes in my life and dangerous situations I have been in to justify anything I am saying?

I also didn't realize that I would have to go out looking for fights or spar with wrestlers/boxers/muay thai 'ers to be confident I am able to drop someone in a real confrontation... but hey! Each to their own

Talk about Fantasy Fu: How are your clips coming along?

[JPinAZ]

Wah! You don't stop lol!

I never realized that everyone here knew my background and life story?

And I didn't realize that I had to explain all the bad episodes in my life and dangerous situations I have been in to justify anything I am saying?

Who said that? I have no idea what you're even talking about. You're just arguing with yourself here.

I also didn't realize that I would have to go out looking for fights or spar with wrestlers/boxers/muay thai 'ers to be confident I am able to drop someone in a real confrontation... but hey! Each to their own

No, you don't have to do that, you are free to do or not do anything you want (well, except if it breaks some anceint code of conduct from long past-masters of course). And no one said you have to go looking for fights - WTF is wrong with your head bro? you're not making any sense now

But, since I was talking about the usefullness of sparring, comps, etc as valid ways for testing/improving your skills and what is actually 'doing WC' (both of which you argue against without ever having done them) and since you dont' spar or fight with your wing chun, we are just talking past each other. But you can't argue I'm wrong in my conclusions if you've never done what I'm talking about.

Again, if you chose not to spar with anyone, that's your choice. But it is fantasy fu thinking you have the skills to defend yourself or 'drop someone' in a real confrontation without having actually tested yourself before-hand.
Without realy testing yourself thru sparring, what exactly to you base this confidence from? Chi sau and drills?
Working the dummy?
And how do you do any of this without a school - are you self taught or learn from videos? (seriously, honest quesitons)

This is why I asked you what YOU think gives you this idea you can confidently say you can defend youself, 'drop someone', etc when the time comes?

Talk about Fantasy Fu: How are your clips coming along?

What the he11 are you even talking about?? I never said I was making any clips - ever. You really should lay down the bong, becasue (no offense) you've lost your f'g mind.

[LoneTiger108]

I have no idea what you're even talking about. You're just arguing with yourself here...

... But, since I was talking about the usefullness of sparring, comps, etc as valid ways for testing/improving your skills and what is actually 'doing WC' (both of which you argue against without ever having done them) and since you dont' spar or fight with your wing chun, we are just talking past each other. But you can't argue I'm wrong in my conclusions if you've never done what I'm talking about.

For someone who states they have been practising Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun since 2002, I found it interesting to see on your website no mention at all about the need to fight eachother or other systems to be doing Wing Chun. Not the best marketing for all those kids I see training too I suppose.

In fact I found a neat piece actually talking in a very similar manner to my own views about the benefits training can have... also being a secretive system I can only presume you are not aware of their codes of Mo Duk yet, after 11 years training (?)

"Hung Fa Yi is a unique and rich lineage of Wing Chun. It is based on using time, space, and energy as efficiently as possible and achieving maximum results for minimum expenditure during conflict. Hung Fa Yi uses precise measurements, proven battlefield strategies and tactics, and focused training methods to build confidence and competence in the system and to ensure that the training is safe, realistic, and effective. For more than three centuries this art was taught in secret, but it has recently been brought out of secrecy. Hung Fa Yi of Arizona is proud to be the only Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu school in the state of Arizona authorized to offer this art to the public"

[Frost]

So you are not a Wing Chun student then? Or haven't learnt anything on the wooden man to share a similar feeling to me? And as a fighter you never practise hitting the heavy bag? Use a speedball?

If you don't understand what I'm saying then that is fine.

I of course know that 'boards don't hit back' dude, I'm only giving an example of a drill that is done quite extensively as an entry level technique which would have to be sacrificed for most comps. I was not aware (because I have never seen one myself) that this type of intent in a kick was allowed in MMA, so thanks for sharing that.



Yep. LUCK is what I think you meant. Perhaps all the fighting has affected your brain/hand coordination?



Really shows your mentality here bully boy, so sorry that you have to big yourself up so much by putting others down...



Totally agree with that, but its just the nature of learning a Chinese Martial Art and at least it entertains us eh?

Spaghetti Western I would think is more your cuppa tea...

the punch bag is used for power generation training and proper form, some footwork and timing is also developed (because it actually moves and is not static) however it does NOT take the place of sparring in any boxing gym its a tool to help build attributes that are honed in the ring, the speed bag is used to develop shoulder endurance it has no direct benefit to fighting

The kicks allowed in MMA and i believe thai, its not seen much though and theres probably a good reason for that...........

what mentality its a simple truth for me an an honest opinion: i started TCMA back in 94 i think, and spent almost as long in sports arts and in the average gym in my honest opinion the sports clubs prepare you better for the street than the TCMA clubs which dont advocate hard sparring and competition in open formats, the students are normally fitter, more used to dealing with pressure and contact.

[JPinAZ]

Are you a troll or are you really this messed up in the head?

For someone who states they have been practising Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun since 2002, I found it interesting to see on your website no mention at all about the need to fight eachother or other systems to be doing Wing Chun. Not the best marketing for all those kids I see training too I suppose.

Once again, you're talking out your a55 and making no sense at all. You'll also most likely not find it on a website that it takes years of hard work, practice, sweat, pain etc to become proficient at WC - but doesn't mean it's not true just because it's not spelled out for you

But LOL at your attempt at stalking me though. And that's fine as I have nothing to hide and always wlecome a new fan (BTW, not sure where you're looking though, but I don't have a website up for my club.)

In fact I found a neat piece actually talking in a very similar manner to my own views about the benefits training can have... also being a secretive system I can only presume you are not aware of their codes of Mo Duk yet, after 11 years training (?)

You're just side-tracking and avoiding the questions. You can keep looking under rocks, between cracks, and in ancient fortune cookies and 'codes' to convince yourself you don't need to spar or test your skills, but you'll only be lying to yourself.
Example: Mo Duk has nothing to do with testing your skills via live sparring & skill challenges.

Again, since you seem to think you know so much about me, why not tell me a bit about yourself so I can see where you logic comes from. I'll repeat my questions the final time:

1. Since you've admitted you don't spar or fight, and seem to be against stepping out of your little bubble , how do you know you can 'drop someone' in a real confrontation?

2. Is it from doing hours of chi sau, forms and fixed drills? Is this what you mean by 'doing WC'?

3. If you dislike the terms 'spar' or 'fight', do you do any live testing to prove your 'drop someone' theory? If so, what?

4. If you don't have a school to train at, where do you get your experience you base your views on? Who do you actually train with?

** Bonus question: I see you avoided my quesion about the clips you seem to think I am making. where the he11 did that come from? Or did you just make it up in your own little head in attempt to troll me?

(So we can keep on point, if you have any other quesitons about HFY lineage, how or what I teach, or anything along those line - please start another thread or PM me and I'll be more than happy to answer. But you can't really expect me me to continue to reply to you if can't keep on point, make stuff up and avoid even the most simple, basic questions I ask of you)

[wingchunIan]

Couple of points from me
1) stamping kicks to the knee are not allowed in either MT or MMA by any of the main governing bodies.
2) virtually 100% of the wing chun that I see taught, demoed or shown on the internet relies upon the punch as the primary weapon. It seems incongruent to me that many of those who so openly declare that the punch is the focal point of the system also claim that wing chun can't be used in competition because of limitations imposed by rules.

The main reasons for me that wing chun doesn't work well in the sport environment are that
1) wing chun relies upon a high pressure style that is difficult to sustain for prolonged times against evasive opponents
2) linked to 1, wing chun is designed to deal with aggressive opponents not chase down someone who doesn't want to fight
3) wing chun is so unique in terms of approach that to be effective in mma etc sparring partners from other arts would be required to replicate the type of opponent that will be faced and they aren't normally readilly available to your average wing chun club.

[guy b.]

The main reasons for me that wing chun doesn't work well in the sport environment are that
1) wing chun relies upon a high pressure style that is difficult to sustain for prolonged times against evasive opponents
2) linked to 1, wing chun is designed to deal with aggressive opponents not chase down someone who doesn't want to fight
3) wing chun is so unique in terms of approach that to be effective in mma etc sparring partners from other arts would be required to replicate the type of opponent that will be faced and they aren't normally readilly available to your average wing chun club.

There is some truth here. 3 is irrelevant though; you impose your style regardless of what the opponent is doing provided your underlying principles are better than theirs.

The main problem with wing chun in sport is that it doesn't work with gloves on. Wing chun trained with gloves becomes something else because power generation wearing gloves is different. Wing chun power is like a spear. Gloved power is like a ball and chain or mace. Utterly different.

Also the mental model of distance and timing is destroyed when you move from gloved to ungloved or vice versa. Since most wing chun train ungloved they aren't going to do well in gloves.

[tc101]

Couple of points from me
1) stamping kicks to the knee are not allowed in either MT or MMA by any of the main governing bodies.
2) virtually 100% of the wing chun that I see taught, demoed or shown on the internet relies upon the punch as the primary weapon. It seems incongruent to me that many of those who so openly declare that the punch is the focal point of the system also claim that wing chun can't be used in competition because of limitations imposed by rules.

The main reasons for me that wing chun doesn't work well in the sport environment are that
1) wing chun relies upon a high pressure style that is difficult to sustain for prolonged times against evasive opponents
2) linked to 1, wing chun is designed to deal with aggressive opponents not chase down someone who doesn't want to fight
3) wing chun is so unique in terms of approach that to be effective in mma etc sparring partners from other arts would be required to replicate the type of opponent that will be faced and they aren't normally readilly available to your average wing chun club.

You make some good points but there are some who are making their wing chun work in mma and K1 so we know it can be done. You could also add that you must train your wing chun as part of a mma repertoire if you want to fight mma. I do not think it is a matter of wing chun the system not working well in a sport environment it is a matter of the practitioner not being able to make it work. How many wing chun people have even tried to make their art work in a sporting environment?