Dan Chi Sau - Ideas

[guy b.]

The other problem is that I have seen video footage of WSL doing this action and I was confused so I asked and when you get the answer it's easy to understand why certain ideas were presented at seminars.

What is the reason?

[EternalSpring]

...In learning chi sao (single hand/double/etc), there was always at least some time spent on grabbing and defending against grabs for me, but not too much. The reason it's not seen a lot and is usually looked down upon is because, imho, most realize grabbing, at least in Ving Tsun, is usually not the best route to take. People who successfully do use grabs in chi sao are usually either overpowering their partner/opponent, a capable "grappler," or someone who is better when it comes to chi sao in the first place and is f'ing around.

[LFJ]

Pulling in double chi-sau: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcCCgj0ew7U

[Graham H]

Call it what you like, but the function is the same. The focus here is just on the elbow, hence referring to it as paau-bong to describe the action. He does indeed show how the elbow creates a new line for the wu-sau to punch through the elbow. You may use different terminology, but the same function is there.

For me it's not. The focus is on the syncronicity of the step, wu sau and bong together. That's why we train it in order to unify them all.

Think, you're already at close range, your eyes have detected a punch being launched, your hands are at your sides. If you can intercept it with just a punch of your own, first of all, you're amazing, but secondly there should be no reason paau-bong + punch (aka. kwan-sau) shouldn't work.

So you are close range, you've seen the punch but your hands are down by your sides? So your elbow is going to save you is it? Have you ever had a fight? Firstly if somebody is engaging then you will not have your hands down by your sides. We also don't wait to be punched and if we have been blindsided then it is probably go into land. In my lineage we have the hand lower than the elbow to reduce and flapping around with the wrist and so we can concentrate on developing the correct rotation. The hand being lower than the elbow is not simulating being stood next to a potential attacker with your arms down BUT id you were and you manage to pull it off then great but there are too many other factors that make this an uneffective idea and will only be beleived by foolish people. There is no time in fighting to think of such things and why we do not spend any time on trying to develop something that doesn't work.

Many Ving Tsun actions can only be made to work at certain speeds. Turn the ferocoity up and many things break down. This is why sparring os so important as it shows you what does not work. In fact no a lot does work. Balance, mobility, punching power, focus and a certain elelment of tactics are all that work. Sticky arms does not. Fighting from YJKYM does not. Chasing the arms does not.

The stepping with this bong-sau is trained from the stepping DCS stage. When the opponent tries to get in with a punch after your palm, you will leave your arm at the point of contact, step out and paau your elbow, ensuring you remain in range to punch through your elbow. The position you end up in will be just as in the CK form, although of course just as incomplete.

Stepping at DCS stage contradicts the whole reason behind why that drill is needed. It's not correct for me. I suppose others can do what they like with it.

You are also saying you step out with Bong Sau? Yes I remember. I asked Philipp, he said no way. I remember being told that "in application" this step is bacwards not forwards.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here but PB and DP have different ideas when it comes to Ving Tsun. All depepnding on what sort of person you are you will sway towards one or the other. I chose PB for his thinking and his way of fighting. I preferred his method. Really the ins and outs of why the two guys differ should not be important. What is important is the time and effort the students of either guys put in and ultimately how they can make it work for them. Although your Teacher can show you a method he is not stoof beside you whilst your are fighting. You are alone and like Bruce Lee said "you better be ready for it!"

[Eric_H]

Eric, I've never seen grabs used in dan chi. Strikes at differing heights, steps and turns, sure, but grabs? Unless you include playful "one-arm sparring" as dan chi. Any chance you have a clip you could share?

Hey Steve,

No clips as of yet. We were going to shoot some application video end of the year last year, but Sifu didn't feel we were up to it until we finished the Kiu Sao Chi Sao module. He's planning on shooting some end of this year as we're wrapping up that training module reasonably soon. I believe we might be taking some dummy footage too, but we'll see.

Anywho, the goal for us is not to grab, but to instead have leverage that denies the grab, so if your partner can grab your bridge... you effed up. We check that at every posture in our single bridge sticking drills.

[Graham H]

Explain what you mean? I'm simply referring to moving off the opponent's attack line and diverting their punch with the bong-sau, but while still maintaining range and position to strike from the wu-sau. Similar to the seung-ma/ teui-ma drill, but with a bong-sau the angle must turn more, unlike jam-sau, taan-sau, jat-sau, etc. which are able to attack. If you use the same footwork with bong-sau you'll be run over.

We are falling into that trap of confusing each other and going around in cirlcles. We could express these ideas and have a clear understanding of it all if we could train in person. Unfortunately we can't so lets bail.

[LFJ]

You train with PB in Germany? I've been studying the language and it's on my list of destinations. Currently living in China though.

[Graham H]

You train with PB in Germany? I've been studying the language and it's on my list of destinations. Currently living in China though.

No I don't train in Germany.

[YouKnowWho]

This clip may be able to add some new "idea" into DCS. Even you only stick one arm on your opponent's arm, you still have to watch his other arm that may punch you anytime he wants to. The nice part about this clip is you have to train how to stick to your opponent's striking arm that come from some distance away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=XbwacKNlUd8#