WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[Jansingsang]

It's not actually. It may be only predominantly myself and Kev on this forum but there are others on other forums and indeed 100's in our lineage that have come from other lineages. If you look on the some European forums even PB himself.

It even rages on Facebook. Only recently there have been "arguments" between long term students (and his many students) that have now joined our lineage from William Cheung. The list goes on and on and on.............

Yes agreed your both on this forum And others are indeed voiceing there take on things also been like that since day dot all the bickering but we got be mindful Not to disrespect
others along the way that's all iam saying at the end of the day Let the mud feist
resume.... Com 'on who wants some

[BPWT]

Okay, I'll give it one last shot. See if you understand the difference;

Stop sucking me back into this thread by being polite and reasonable

Responding to force would be like maintaining 'stick' in order to sense, conform, and change shape based on the opponent's energy left, right, up, down, forward, or backward, then find a weakness in there to strike. That to me is follow the leader, the definition of arm chasing.

If you think of it as someone changing shape based on these criteria of movement and force, and following the limb issuing the movement and force, wherever it goes... then yes, this would be chasing hands.

But what I am saying is that contact is made when you are directing your force towards the opponent to strike them. If your force is greater than theirs and your position is better, you go in (go forward, etc) and strike. But if you make contact and you can't do this, then you respond to the force in a different way - you need to redirect, angle, etc, while keeping contact (stick, if you will) that still retains the hallmarks of forward force/pressure.

Why do I say "while keeping contact"?

I'm not chasing hands because the retained contact is just a consequence of the opponent having a good line, while I am adjusting to find a better one/tighter one.

If they move their arm completely off this line (they just move it away from my center with no purpose behind the action) I don't then keep contact with it (keep stick/feeling) as 'the way is free' for me to go forward. So I hit. Contact would have been lost (they disengaged their striking arm), but that's good in this case, as they opened a line of attack.

This sounds way more complicated that it actually is. When I write it down it is easy to think: how do you feel the force, how do you react to it, how do you know how to change angle if needed, how do you do this, that and the other, at speed?

But it's really not so complicated in practice (though it is not necessarily easy ). Chi Sau, and the various other drills that aid us in getting LLHS - LSJC into what we do, teach us to respond to fast actions without thinking - in my lineage, LT put together a series of drills (Chi Sau sections, he calls them) to help you start this process.

This is the purpose of Chi Sau (IMO) - to teach you how, on contact and via the forward pressure you keep, you can automatically handle the force and directions of force... from that initial point of contact.

That's why earlier I wrote: "The process of contact and feeling is not reflective in that sense... you don't wait and 'try to do something with it'. Everything happens too fast. That speed is why the system has bridging tools. You make contact and then as the opponent moves/strikes/applies force or strength, the options you have are made for you - LLHS - LSJC."

So for me, WT/WC/VT is a bridging art - it has to be because LLHS - LSJC teaches us what to do once there's contact, and it implies that in reality contact will happen.

Responding to position, on the other hand, would be knowing angles, attacking lines, etc. through bodily awareness and acting to cut into the most advantageous lines by way of interception, or application of force to disrupt the opponent's balance, structure, and facing while simultaneously striking them.

You know, I am not disagreeing with this. Really, I agree .

But my point is regarding all the things you mention (angles, lines, interception, application of force, etc) is in relation to "bodily awareness".

When things happen at speed, I am saying this awareness - this understanding of your position - is better found in relation to your opponent via contact once an initial bridge was made (provided of course, that you didn't get lucky and simply hit the guy with a clean strike and KO'd him with a single attack - something that would be nice, but not realistic).

I always assume contact will happen - a bridge formed - in an encounter. LLHS - LSJC is about receiving, following (center - not arm chasing), issuing, etc.

Or to look at it from a different angle, what does the second form teach us - why is it called Chum Kiu?

What I have been disagreeing with is the assertion that WSLPBVT doesn't do this - people have been saying this lineage doesn't look to bridge, doesn't look to keep contact (stick) and redirect, etc. Truly, you disengage more than most WC/WT lineages, but when I see PB in his clips, I see him working pretty much everything from contact that leads to redirecting.

A bridge is contact (brief stick).

Earlier I wrote: "Clearing a path, let's say with lap sau, is redirecting! A tan motion is redirecting. When you, in PB lineage, say your Bong Sau is shunting, that is a way of redirecting. My point is that PB is constantly bridging and redirecting in those clips."

And that is why I also earlier wrote: "So... when I watch these clips of PB, I see him constantly bridging, redirecting, working position off of contact (brief stick)."

[Ozzy Dave]

Ive said it before, Ali-Frazier were stylistically as opposed as you could get two boxers, but no one ever said that either of them didnt box.

Shame the WC-VT people cant think the same

G’day Glenn,

Yeah, funny you should mention boxing, its great for giving perspective and learning to respect individual style. You also learn to appreciate sabre rattling for what it is – a sugar pedestal that will dissolve at the first defeat and we’ll all be defeated some time. However, while keeping this in mind nothing wrong with debating the finer points I say

Dave

[Sean66]

Good post T_Ray.
Just like wing chun should be. Short, precise and to the point.

[Graham H]

Good post T_Ray.
Just like wing chun should be. Short, precise and to the point.

...unless you practice LTWT, ICWC or HKMVT! lol

[LFJ]

But what I am saying is that contact is made when you are directing your force towards the opponent to strike them. If your force is greater than theirs and your position is better, you go in (go forward, etc) and strike. But if you make contact and you can't do this, then you respond to the force in a different way - you need to redirect, angle, etc, while keeping contact (stick, if you will) that still retains the hallmarks of forward force/pressure.

Doesn't sound familiar...

What I have been disagreeing with is the assertion that WSLPBVT doesn't do this - people have been saying this lineage doesn't look to bridge, doesn't look to keep contact (stick) and redirect, etc. Truly, you disengage more than most WC/WT lineages, but when I see PB in his clips, I see him working pretty much everything from contact that leads to redirecting.

No PBVT reps in my country, so I can't say exactly what's going on. But I don't see him sticking in his clips. I see a heck of a lot of ballistic force, and listening to his students, that's what they feel. So that tells me what is actually happening. You're seeing something else and not listening to his students who actual feel it.

[GlennR]

G’day Glenn,

Yeah, funny you should mention boxing, its great for giving perspective and learning to respect individual style. You also learn to appreciate sabre rattling for what it is – a sugar pedestal that will dissolve at the first defeat and we’ll all be defeated some time. However, while keeping this in mind nothing wrong with debating the finer points I say

Dave

Evening Dave

Thing about boxing is that it has perspective as they fight, one stylist can say "your hook is wrong technically" but the response will be "ive knocked 8 men out with that technically flawed hook"

Its ALL about perspective.

Having said that, its understanding the finer details that gets you to that elite level im sure we'd all like to be at

[BPWT]

@ LFJ

Fair enough - to each his own.

[GlennR]

Doesn't sound familiar...

Yep, pretty common them amongst most WC lineages

No PBVT reps in my country, so I can't say exactly what's going on. But I don't see him sticking in his clips. I see a heck of a lot of ballistic force, and listening to his students, that's what they feel. So that tells me what is actually happening. You're seeing something else and not listening to his students who actual feel it.

Yeh, but he does use the bridge, he bases his line of attack on what he has done with the bridge...... wether its shunting, sticking etc

[tc101]

Thing about boxing is that it has perspective as they fight, one stylist can say "your hook is wrong technically" but the response will be "ive knocked 8 men out with that technically flawed hook"

The thing is technical correctness is seen as a starting point to learn from and from there you learn how to do things best for yourself. To put it a different way it is just a model to help you and give you an idea of how start doing things.

Its ALL about perspective.

That is the truth.

Having said that, its understanding the finer details that gets you to that elite level im sure we'd all like to be at

I think you are right but here is the thing people hearing this often believe that the understanding comes first and that you get it from someone who shares their let me repeat their understanding with you. I have learned that is not true. As your skill level increases from training your understanding grows not the other way round and while someone can share their understanding you cannot adopt it since then it is not your understanding but just a knock off limited version of theirs. You can only ever have your understanding which comes from your training and experience.

[GlennR]

The thing is technical correctness is seen as a starting point to learn from and from there you learn how to do things best for yourself. To put it a different way it is just a model to help you and give you an idea of how start doing things.

It goes in steps, you practice... you go back to fundamentals... you learn fundamentals... you practice

I think you are right but here is the thing people hearing this often believe that the understanding comes first and that you get it from someone who shares their let me repeat their understanding with you. I have learned that is not true. As your skill level increases from training your understanding grows not the other way round and while someone can share their understanding you cannot adopt it since then it is not your understanding but just a knock off limited version of theirs. You can only ever have your understanding which comes from your training and experience.

Its a combination..... understanding with practise and vice versa

[Graham H]

Yep, pretty common them amongst most WC lineages



Yeh, but he does use the bridge, he bases his line of attack on what he has done with the bridge...... wether its shunting, sticking etc

No he doesn't. His line of attack is based on mistakes and openings presented by the other guy. This is what chi sau teaches, not arm sticking. This way he can maintain striking without the risk of meeting obstacles square on. He doesn't try to deflect things out of the way. He takes the opponents ability to strike away completely. If a quick pak, jut or bong are required its not because he has made any bridge detections. He intercepts incoming attacks with one swift action that is combined with an attack. No time to stick.

There is a whole strategy for this. It's GOT NOTHING TO WITH EFFING BRIDGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GlennR]

No he doesn't. His line of attack is based on mistakes and openings presented by the other guy.

Mistakes id assume he has helped create...... yes? no?

This is what chi sau teaches, not arm sticking.

Did i say that?

This way he can maintain striking without the risk of meeting obstacles square on.

Because he works a line after having dealt with the obstacle (bridge), or did it just magically disappear?

He doesn't try to deflect things out of the way. He takes the opponents ability to strike away completely. If a quick pak, jut or bong are required its not because he has made any bridge detections. He intercepts incoming attacks with one swift action that is combined with an attack. No time to stick.

Oh come on G, he paks to clear the line all the time in his clips.

There is a whole strategy for this. It's GOT NOTHING TO WITH EFFING BRIDGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Calm down G.... youre getting too old to get excited!

[Ozzy Dave]

Evening Dave

Thing about boxing is that it has perspective as they fight, one stylist can say "your hook is wrong technically" but the response will be "ive knocked 8 men out with that technically flawed hook"

Its ALL about perspective.

Having said that, its understanding the finer details that gets you to that elite level im sure we'd all like to be at

Agreed Glenn

Dave

[tc101]

It goes in steps, you practice... you go back to fundamentals... you learn fundamentals... you practice

Yes yes I agree I am only saying that the model is not how we will often end up doing things that we will often modify that model way to suit our individuality and that is why you cannot use some objective standard or model to compare with how someone is doing it and say it is good or bad. For that you need to look at how it is working for them. It is through the practice that you learn how to modify things for yourself. Of course there are guidelines but they are only that.

Its a combination..... understanding with practise and vice versa

Yes.