WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[GlennR]

So let me get this right, if during a fight two arms collide, the opponents arm position is totally irrelevant to you guys?

You dont have to take it into account?

It "doesnt exist"???

And please......... before you say sticking.... i havent said sticking once.

Im thinking ill take the Hendrik approach here and just keep saying the same thing over and over.

Any chance of one of you PBWSLVT guys addressing that above?

Or will i get TST is crap, you have to feel PB, you dont know what you are talking about, boxing is not fighting.... blah blah blah

Oh, and before you jump in G...... youre a knob

[guy b.]

BTW Glenn you will be interested to know that I have been back boxing recently. Apart from PB and PB guys nobody can really fight Wing Chun so I had no choice. The sparring has been an eye opener as I originally thought I could use Ving Tsun. No way albeit footwork and attacking lines. Without the gloves I can use my Ving Tsun and in fact have more success than with gloves against a person that is throwing hooks. uppercuts etc. If the gloves are on I have to box.

I can't be bothered to go into the details why but it is safe to say that the arm contact wing chun brigade would not stand much chance if any at all.

Very interesting detail.

I have also found that wing chun is virtually impossible to pull off wearing gloves, but have got a lot of disagreement here from saying so. Has this experience made you re-evaluate your wing chun (or gloved sparring) in any way? I would be grateful if you would go into a bit more detail on your experiences with boxing.

[Ozzy Dave]

Yes he is good Dave, too many hands on people all say this, and you can see how he moves that he'd be a handful.

Moving onto the arm in the way thing......

Yeah, sorry, got excited...had downed a couple of king browns.

VT could be seen as internal testing method of line integrity and mindless action with a similar idea. If the idea breaks down one partner hits easily through gaps or manipulating redundant contact to a tactical end. We don't look for arms with ours.

Kev sort of answered it here I think, contact is redundant as soon as it fails to affect the opponent's cog via ballistic force - they just don't emphasise other types of contact imo.

Dave

[Vajramusti]

Very interesting detail.

I have also found that wing chun is virtually impossible to pull off wearing gloves, but have got a lot of disagreement here from saying so. Has this experience made you re-evaluate your wing chun (or gloved sparring) in any way? I would be grateful if you would go into a bit more detail on your experiences with boxing.

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With enough wing chun trainiing one learns how to adapt even to gloves.

[guy b.]

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With enough wing chun trainiing one learns how to adapt even to gloves.

can you elaborate a bit please?

[Graham H]

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With enough wing chun trainiing one learns how to adapt even to gloves.

Complete rubbish! I've been doing Ving Tsun for 17 years and I boxed as an amateur. I've also done my fair share of full and semi contact kick boxing and there is no way VT can work properly with Boxing gloves!

You seem to be suggesting that with experience all of a sudden gloves can be effective. Maybe only Instructors can use them lol

[WC1277]

Complete rubbish! I've been doing Ving Tsun for 17 years and I boxed as an amateur. I've also done my fair share of full and semi contact kick boxing and there is no way VT can work properly with Boxing gloves!

You seem to be suggesting that with experience all of a sudden gloves can be effective. Maybe only Instructors can use them lol

If you keep trying to do chi sao "ballistics" with them, then sure. I can see how one armed shuffling would be difficult.

You should thoroughly understand chum kiu better.

btw I thought you didn't use wrists.... just saying...

[Graham H]

If you keep trying to do chi sao "ballistics" with them, then sure. I can see how one armed shuffling would be difficult.

You should thoroughly understand chum kiu better.

btw I thought you didn't use wrists.... just saying...

Don't make me laugh mate! I'm on about sparring not chi sau.

Are you saying that I don't understand Chum Kiu!? Coming from you that has to be the funniest thing I've heard so far today.

What has using wrists got to do with boxing gloves you fool!?

[guy b.]

Complete rubbish! I've been doing Ving Tsun for 17 years and I boxed as an amateur. I've also done my fair share of full and semi contact kick boxing and there is no way VT can work properly with Boxing gloves!

You seem to be suggesting that with experience all of a sudden gloves can be effective. Maybe only Instructors can use them lol

Graham H, can you answer my question about gloves on the previous page please? I agree that you can't do wing chun in them. Initially I thought my wing chun was rubbish compared to boxing/muay thai but I have since found that it works ungloved. Did your boxing experience make you re-evaluate your wing chun at all? Why do you think it works ungloved but not gloved?

[Graham H]

Graham H, can you answer my question about gloves on the previous page please? I agree that you can't do wing chun in them. Initially I thought my wing chun was rubbish compared to boxing/muay thai but I have since found that it works ungloved. Did your boxing experience make you re-evaluate your wing chun at all? Why do you think it works ungloved but not gloved?

Ok.......

with boxing gloves on makes it difficult to use the correct punching strategy. The Man/wu position is very important and also punching from the correct wu sau position becomes harder. Wu Sau to Jut sau can be used to clear a path for the punch. It makes 50% less work in doing this if doing it correctly. With gloves on this becomes harder. It's not possible to use pak sau or jut sau correctly with boxing gloves especially with some types that have the thumb attached to the main part of the glove.
Chum Kiu teaches us a centerline crossing and recycling of the punch and using this punch to exploit gaps in the the opponents defense. With gloves on that occupy a larger space it becomes very hard to do.
Having an open hand is neccessary for a lot of VT actions.

The other thing to consider is that your sparring partner may also be wearing boxing gloves so the space in the middle is always full of glove.

VT functions using one arm to do two things. The hand has to be free to punch, palm, chop and the elbow assists by protecting the center, controlling the opponents COG and also to displace and limbs to make a path for the punch. These things are all made harder with gloves. You can have more success the smaller the mitt but for me no gloves is best and then I can get to work.

Timing and distancing is also effected by gloves. Basically if you want to put boxing gloves on its better to box. Training and sparring bare knuckle is best. There is no chance of taking a few punches on the gloves and using gloves for protection with open hands.

It may be difficult to understand from the written word and we already know that my lineage of Ving Tsun doesn't function the same as your LT's and IC's of this world.

When I was in Spain a few weeks ago we trained sparring and sparring drills all week. The sessions started with gloves (as one of the guys was preparing for a cage fight) but before too long we went back to no protection and padding. VT functions better that way.

This is only my opinion. If other systems of WC want to use gloves then that's up to them but we know that most WC decends into messy air beating kick boxing when they start to spar.

[tc101]

Even if everything you say is true for how you do wing chun the problem you run into is how do you practice really punching and by that I mean solidly striking your opponent without gloves and other protection? Because if you are not doing that not solidly striking your sparring partner you are not really sparring you are just playing around.

[Graham H]

Even if everything you say is true for how you do wing chun the problem you run into is how do you practice really punching and by that I mean solidly striking your opponent without gloves and other protection? Because if you are not doing that not solidly striking your sparring partner you are not really sparring you are just playing around.

I can assure you mate that we don't play around. We spar with no protection and people get hurt. We have people watching on that can catch people of they fall and if somebody takes a clean shot to the head they are not allowed to continue no matter how much damage is done if any at all. Black eyes, cut lips and the occasional knock down are normal. The only thing we don't use in sparring is fak sau because of the damage it can potentially do the the main artery in the neck and the jaw. When you spar somebody equally or better skilled than you it is very difficult and becomes a game of cat and mouse. We are always encouraged to continue pushing and trying to go forward (LSJC) so the skill of dealing with the pressure improves.

[tc101]

I can assure you mate that we don't play around. We spar with no protection and people get hurt. We have people watching on that can catch people of they fall and if somebody takes a clean shot to the head they are not allowed to continue no matter how much damage is done if any at all. Black eyes, cut lips and the occasional knock down are normal. The only thing we don't use in sparring is fak sau because of the damage it can potentially do the the main artery in the neck and the jaw. When you spar somebody equally or better skilled than you it is very difficult and becomes a game of cat and mouse. We are always encouraged to continue pushing and trying to go forward (LSJC) so the skill of dealing with the pressure improves.

I am sorry but I have difficulty believing that you guys really spar and by that I mean are putting in solid shots with the body behind them with no protective gear like gloves or head protection or mouth pieces or cups and so forth. One round of that would leave people a bloody mess.

Here is a clip of good light sparring though with boxers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZYDTptMEpI

imagine if they did not have gloves or head gear or mouthpieces.

[Vajramusti]

can you elaborate a bit please?

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Since you asked. Not debating specially with Graham.

1. You dont need boxing gloves to do wing chun.
2.You can test whether you can deliver power through muffled hands... with many wing chun motions. or there maybe some contest requiring gloves but allowing you to do wing chun.
3. you can use wing chun structure and motion rather than boxing- and not bobbing and weaving.
4. If you develop wing chun "short power" you can hit with either hand
5 you can step in and punch with vertical fist, you can punch upward, down ward, whipping inside or our, use your lan bridge fpr hitting. hammer fist etc.
6. for defense you can pak.jut, gum fak etc and much more.

Developing short explosive power is the key.There is much more but I give the idea.

[Wayfaring]

Here is a clip of good light sparring though with boxers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZYDTptMEpI

imagine if they did not have gloves or head gear or mouthpieces.

I didn't see anything in that round that would have required headgear like they are wearing.

Are you saying you don't think it's possible to bare knuckle spar in a light fashion like that clip without really injuring each other? I disagree.

Look I advocate sparring in all scenarios - gear, no gear, light, hard. Except use a mouthpiece / gum shield for all of it, and a cup. There are good and bad points about each method.