The Pole

[Graham H]

Austin Goh

[LoneTiger108]

Austin Goh

Sometimes you might get a better impression from a Sifu if you touch hands with their students G. I have and found some of his elder generations (pre 1990s) are superb at what they do, but it still all depends on their own efforts as always.

Anyhow... I found his clip on pole, so show us yours G
http://youtu.be/0HN770KhLm4

[Graham H]

Sometimes you might get a better impression from a Sifu if you touch hands with their students G. I have and found some of his elder generations (pre 1990s) are superb at what they do, but it still all depends on their own efforts as always.

Anyhow... I found his clip on pole, so show us yours G
http://youtu.be/0HN770KhLm4

Touch hands meaning????????????????????

[Graham H]

Anyhow... I found his clip on pole, so show us yours G
http://youtu.be/0HN770KhLm4

Good for cameras and kung fu movies but not Ving Tsun fighting.

[LoneTiger108]

Good for cameras and kung fu movies but not Ving Tsun fighting.

You're probably right. No place for strength and flexibilty in your VT. Strange that WSL thought differently but hey he was just an average student of Ip Man wasn't he? Let me guess... His pole IS great for your VT fighting right?

Yawn

[Eric_H]

There isn't a 'full' set available anywhere online, only small scenes were included in a promotional DVD advert

http://youtu.be/3dD6_7mzAQs

Austin Goh demos have been out there for years and one of Joe Lees guys has put stuff out more recently, and both are a little different from eachother and from my own.

Looking at the pole, it certainly has decent double end mechanics, frankly it looks a lot like a set in futshan bak mei. I think I've seen something very similar out of the Chan Wa Shun fmaily line on youtube some time ago.

I have trouble accepting it as WC because it doesn't appear to follow gate theory or live/dead side theory... but it's just a form. I'm sure there' more meat in the applications. Can you speak to some of what he's showing here?

[BPWT]

To me, this pole work from Austin Goh looks very, very different what we see elsewhere from Yip Man.

Spencer, could you tell us more about it - the training and the principles behind its use, and how you see if differing from other YM pole training (if indeed you do see it as different).

For me, I would still say the Tang Yik lineage pole is still the best I have seen - though I hope the pole he uses is lighter than the pole we use (otherwise there is really no hope for me with weapon).

[Grumblegeezer]

This is very good stuff! Weng Chun rather than Wing Chun, as has been already stated, but ...I don' find that the body mechanics used in Wing Chun pole and Weng Chun pole are really all that different.

I'd have to agree. In fact I find more similarity between this and the WT pole movements I learned than I do with the Austin Goh stuff posted.

If there is any truth to the stories attributing the WC/VT/WT long pole to a collaboration between Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo on the "red boat", then the pole movements said to have come from Chi Shin would be the one common point between the Wing Tsun and Weng Tsun sytems.

[LoneTiger108]

Looking at the pole, it certainly has decent double end mechanics, frankly it looks a lot like a set in futshan bak mei. I think I've seen something very similar out of the Chan Wa Shun fmaily line on youtube some time ago.

Yes Bakmei have double ended cudgel work, as does Eagle Claw and many other arts, but what my Sigung is showing is just 2 sets from his Wing Chun pole.

I have trouble accepting it as WC because it doesn't appear to follow gate theory or live/dead side theory... but it's just a form. I'm sure there' more meat in the applications. Can you speak to some of what he's showing here?

I can and have done so a few times here before now. We do have the gates and live/dead sides too. Maybe there is some truth in your Chan Wah Shun idea, seeing as Sigung had travelled far and wide to learn Wing Chun. Some say he learnt from Ng Jung So too but many stories exist outside and inside the family as a whole and more research is definitely needed.

I just mess about and wave flags so I'm sure there are others far older and more knowledgeable about this stuff than me.

[LoneTiger108]

For me, I would still say the Tang Yik lineage pole is still the best I have seen

Firstly I have to agree with you. If I'm talking about stuff I've seen online, but in front of me in training I have seen many things like it and far better.

To me, this pole work from Austin Goh looks very, very different what we see elsewhere from Yip Man.

For me it is what you say it is but I also see and know the sets that are much more familiar to what is seen from Ip Mans other pole students too. Fair play, Austin doesn't really show that in his clip.

Spencer, could you tell us more about it - the training and the principles behind its use, and how you see if differing from other YM pole training (if indeed you do see it as different).

And spoil the book, DVD and Youtube vlogs I'm working on!? Never

[BPWT]

And spoil the book, DVD and Youtube vlogs I'm working on!? Never

So long as you make some of it public - I'll be happy to take a look... and then ask more questions

[LoneTiger108]

This is the only time I have publically demonstrated our pole plays (with a stick!) and I wonder if people can see the similarities in motion to some things they may have trained with their long pole.

http://youtu.be/MH_5SS2BR-Y?t=2m

All I ask is that you view this clip in context to the time and stage everyone was at back then when we were with our Sifu at Jun Mo. We were a very traditional group, promoting a way to perform that caused quite a stir. Man, even the uniforms threw the modernists into a rage lol!

But that was how we all were, and in a way I know my Sifu loved the time we all had as we were only trying to make people think about what Wing Chun may have been like before it became what it is today. We were having some fun of sorts too...

[Graham H]

This is the only time I have publically demonstrated our pole plays (with a stick!) and I wonder if people can see the similarities in motion to some things they may have trained with their long pole.

http://youtu.be/MH_5SS2BR-Y?t=2m

All I ask is that you view this clip in context to the time and stage everyone was at back then when we were with our Sifu at Jun Mo. We were a very traditional group, promoting a way to perform that caused quite a stir. Man, even the uniforms threw the modernists into a rage lol!

But that was how we all were, and in a way I know my Sifu loved the time we all had as we were only trying to make people think about what Wing Chun may have been like before it became what it is today. We were having some fun of sorts too...

You belong in the West End mate not a battle ground!

[KPM]

What are we to learn from this clip alone? How to copy things we do not know? lol!

---We see some very nimble stepping and some obvious power generation with a long weapon. Seeing it done helps one know what is possible. From a Ip Man WCK perspective, we see things that look like an extension of what we already do, opening up some additional possibilities for application.

It seems odd to me that this kind of old B&W clip is put in high regard even though it has very little, if anything, to do with the Wing Chun system (according to most)

---Seems that most posting here see it as having something to do with WCK!

and yet a clip of my own Sigung practising his pole is slammed for being 'his own invention', and he was one of the first representatives of Ip Man in Europe alongside guys like Lok Yiu who was also known as 'King of the stick'!

---Sorry. I hadn't seen the clip of your Sigung before. But I checked out the clip you posted here. To me it looked like a pretty basic drill. Not nearly as long or as in-depth as the clip of Tang Yik. I also did not see the obvious power and "snap" as in the Tang Yik video. And I'll note that Ip Man Wing Chun does not strike with the butt of the pole or twirl it around!

Maybe I'm just a bit jealous of this Tang Yik lineage but the acceptance and praise for it just don't make sense to me at all considering...

---Doesn't make sense??? Its a clip of a well-know master showing an obvious level of high skill. Why wouldn't it get high praise?

[LoneTiger108]

We see some very nimble stepping and some obvious power generation with a long weapon. Seeing it done helps one know what is possible. From a Ip Man WCK perspective, we see things that look like an extension of what we already do, opening up some additional possibilities for application.

Okay. You see a connection to the Ip Man pole in what they do and you do, as do I. And I also see the connection of what I have seen in my own lineage too.

But out of interest, how does your training utilize this huen gwan method seen in the Tang Yik set??

http://youtu.be/_U2crnECuC8?t=1m7s

This is the 'nimble footwork' you are talking about? This is also very common in basic baat gwa gwan practise, something that isn't even commonly considered to be within Wing Chun pole especially from Ip Man

So, please show me ANY Ip family that 'use' this mobility method in empty hand training like you are suggesting. I know where it is in my own training so please share your experience.

I hadn't seen the clip of your Sigung before. But I checked out the clip you posted here. To me it looked like a pretty basic drill. Not nearly as long or as in-depth as the clip of Tang Yik.

As I have said, if you're talking of my Sigung in his clip, he is showing 2 sets of his Wing Chun pole. We have 7 sets just as most do in Ip Man Wing Chun. Some students of Joe Lee even have other completely different forms entirely but I digress...

I also did not see the obvious power and "snap" as in the Tang Yik video. And I'll note that Ip Man Wing Chun does not strike with the butt of the pole or twirl it around!

My Sigung was over 60 in his clip and the set as he played it in the clip is at a very basic level with a solid staff, no flex as this was all that was available to him on the day!

You lose my interest with the last part of your comment. I have heard the twirling thing so much and even when I mention we are practising stick/cudgel plays I am still hearing it lol! And you do not use your butt?? Shame on you!

All cudgel was a pre-cursor for me to using the long pole. Both have different methods and many similarities too. I am only a little guy so it helped to build me up and prepare for more strenuous conditioning. These type of sets too are generally missing from common Wing Chun pole forms, and I see quite a few of them in the Tang Yik clip