Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-24-2013 at 02:45 PM.
http://johnswang.com
More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
I'm not talking about the "sticky stuff", I'm talking about the "specific fighting applications". I just don't understand why a WC guy only thinks about to fight another WC guy.
One partner training that I like is to ask my partner to attack me with full speed and try to knock me head off. What style am I training? I truly don't know and don't care.
The discussion started from BPWT's comment. I think it's a valid comment and need more in depth discussion.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-24-2013 at 02:58 PM.
http://johnswang.com
More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
How long does it take for Pak Sau to redirect? Not long. That's all the redirecting that's required.
Why do you insist on making a discussion an argument based on your deliberate misunderstanding of what others do? I gave the example of Pak Sau, and you know full well this doesn't require any sort of extended contact. T_Ray said PBVT has similar development drills to what I described.
Why does this create such a problem for you?
No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.
Yes, thanks. That is clearer. But I assume you wouldn't be opposed to isolating a particular technique to practice it and develop it and correct any errors? Like my example of the tennis coach isolating the backhand for practice and then sending the player back in the game to use it spontaneously? Because that's how I see it. Not a choreographed "we do this move to counter against that move" kind of approach.
I agree that Chi Sau is not a "simulation." It is the thing itself and should transfer over to fighting if trained properly. But I can see what John is saying as well. Certain things aren't going to show up in a Chi Sau exchange with another Wing Chun guy unless he purposefully does them for you...like a shoot for a takedown, an attempted grapple, or an extended sidekick. So how do you guys train to insure you will be ready for something like that? Something that is "non-Wing Chun"?
@KPM
Some folks fixate on "technique" application. So they ask questions like you; "what do you do if someone punches you like this?" with ideas of technique responses like paak-da and taan-da, etc.. In the end you're still asking what technique we will use to respond. If we do that, we are back to preset 1:1 application, and as we're trying to explain, we don't do that.
In application of concepts the tool used is not the point. So we don't train to develop specific technique responses to particular attacks. If you fixate on the finger you miss the big picture. No matter how spontaneously you apply your technique responses, that's still what they are, and that is not the same as applying concepts. Training to develop that is trying to replicate an art form that has already been painted for you, rather than training a skill to be mastered and uniquely employed by each individual. Don't be a slave to the system and all that...
Some folks fixate on "technique" application. So they ask questions like you; "what do you do if someone punches you like this?" with ideas of technique responses like paak-da and taan-da, etc.. In the end you're still asking what technique we will use to respond. If we do that, we are back to preset 1:1 application, and as we're trying to explain, we don't do that.
No, that's not what I mean. If your Chi Sau partner suddenly shoves you away as he steps back and launches a hard kickboxer style sidekick, how do you respond? Maybe you sidestep, maybe you Gan Sau, maybe you Gum Sau...or something else. It's not "preset." But there is certainly a timing and distance and the element of the unexpected involved here that needs to be worked on to ensure that you are prepared for such a thing when sparring or fighting a non-Wing Chun guy. Same for someone shooting in for the takedown. I don't think "standard" Wing Chun training prepares you for things like that. Do you? In other words, how do you train or prepare for "non-Wing Chun" attacks that are very different from what you practice on a daily basis? How do you know for sure you can stop a boxer's tight hook if no one has ever thrown one at you?
Ok. Thanks. Then it sounds like we are in agreement on this point, despite all the prior rhetoric. But that would also suggest that there is a right and wrong way to do technique...yes? Therefore there would be a proper "position" for the Bong, Taan, etc. that defends you the best and sets up your own strikes?
Chi Sau is a co-operative drilling platform. You should know what the drill is improving and develop it. I doubt anybody in a street fight will push you back and do a "kickboxer style side kick" I've not witnessed that before lolNo, that's not what I mean. If your Chi Sau partner suddenly shoves you away as he steps back and launches a hard kickboxer style sidekick, how do you respond?
You gan sau or gum kicks do you? oh dearMaybe you sidestep, maybe you Gan Sau, maybe you Gum Sau...or something else.
Timing and distance is improved by the correct practice of chi sau - gor sau - sparring. As soon as you try and second guess what your opponent is going to throw you are in trouble.It's not "preset." But there is certainly a timing and distance and the element of the unexpected involved here that needs to be worked on to ensure that you are prepared for such a thing when sparring or fighting a non-Wing Chun guy. Same for someone shooting in for the takedown. I don't think "standard" Wing Chun training prepares you for things like that. Do you? In other words, how do you train or prepare for "non-Wing Chun" attacks that are very different from what you practice on a daily basis? How do you know for sure you can stop a boxer's tight hook if no one has ever thrown one at you?
The last thing on my mind when I go into a fight is "can this guy box, is he going to throw a right hook!?"
.......no way Jose!
"Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"
Wong Shun Leung.