Well again, you speak my mind so thank you Keith.
I did indeed mean that each of the 3 seeds has it's own strengths and weaknesses or advantages and disadvantages depending on what chat floats your boat.
To reply to your question, and with my magical crazy theories well in tact, I would take a wild guess at ALL THREE!
Ti Fei
詠春國術
Really?!?! You're gonna chime in here to insult everyone on this thread who didn't use the magic word (to you) "seed"?!? WTF that's just ludicrous. This forum has so much bull**** over semantics it's unbelievable. KF Fighter posts a discussion relevant quote by the man himself, LJ regarding bong sao, and you dismiss that because it doent use the word seeds...
Just about everyone who's trained WC for a bit has heard the old "seeds" adage, but it's not as relevant to the discussion of whether bong has faults... that's a whole other topic on bong.
Being overly pedantic with out enough hard sparring and fighting, now THAT is a problem around here, not deviations in verbiage which only makes for some interesting discussions.
No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.
Wah! That was all a bit 'mutant' like! What is the problem? Maybe I should have been a bit clearer and used the IMHO or something but take a pill and relax dude because you are only supporting your bullsh1t analogy by over reacting.
But seriously, if you like the LJ saying so much, maybe you can explain what it means?
I must have been mistaken. As far as I am aware and from all the discussions and people I have met the word 'seed' in relation to our handwork methods is not that common at all. Especially in the PBWSL camp.
I thought is was relevant to the posts I quoted from Joy and FongSung, and I didn't see you jump all over them? But hey... maybe you're stressed out about something else, somewhere else?
You sound like you think you know me or something? Interesting. But tell me, what has this comment got to do with a thread about Bong Sau being a mistake exactly?
Last edited by LoneTiger108; 10-03-2013 at 11:59 AM.
Ti Fei
詠春國術
Ahhh sorry i overreacted, your post got under my skin for a minute and got me fired up.. but now i'm on to the next thing and could care less. TOo busy here today to keep up arguing on a forum. Have a nice day gotta run.
Another 'Bong Sau' perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhvYOPcwnGM
No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.
I don't understand why he had to use "wrong Bong - right Bong against right punch" in this clip.
At 1.30, if his opponent uses left palm to push on his right elbow joint (or upper arm) to force his body to spin to his left, his left arm will be jammed by his own right arm, and his left punch won't be able to punch out (in order to punch his left fist, his body will need to spin to his right).
His opponent can also use his right hand to grab on his right wrist, and pull his right arm to be across his body. This can also cause his body to spin to his left and make his left punch fail.
If his opponent's right hand can pull on his right wrist, and left hand can push on his right elbow joint, that's the most basic TCMA 搂手(Lou Shou).
To assume that he has speed to:
- move out of his opponent's striking path,
- punch left fist on his opponent's face,
while his opponent is still freezing in his right punch posture with his left palm next to his right arm may not be realistic.
Not saying his opponent has the knowledge, or is always good enough to do so. But his "wrong Bong" does give his opponent that opportunity.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-04-2013 at 02:02 AM.
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More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
Yes, any of those things could happen. But in this clip Emin is simply showing the basics and how you would learn as a beginner - I guess how you would first learn the hows and whys of Bong. Later in the clips he shows how the position is, of course, not held; how the Bong almost immediately changes and Wu Sau starts the striking flow.
In this case, Wrong Bong occurs due to the contact happening via him having his right hand in Man Sau and the punch from the student being from the right hand too.
Also, he is just showing one aspect of Bong's possible use.
But there are certainly 'potential dangers' with the Wrong Bong positioning - though the tables can be turned in your favor too. So snakes and ladders.
I think the important thing is that the Bong 'shape' is not held, that it immediately flows into something else.
No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.
BPWT--good clip of Emin. You know, I never remember hearing the term wrong bong in the WT system. Sure the outside gate bong puts you into a safer position, but the inside gate cross-arm bong works too ...if your bong flows instantly into an attack, as it should. Check out how Emin does this at 3:19 and again at 4:18.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhvYOPcwnGM
The "wrong bong" label implies that we choose which bong to make, and presumably choose wrong. In WT, the energy you receive from your opponent dictates the movements you make. If your arm encounters pressure that rolls it over into a bong-sau, then bong happens regardless of which arm you contact. The problem is that bong is defensive and with the inside gate cross-arm bong you are vulnerable to an attack with the other hand, so you can't hesitate even for an instant.
Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 10-04-2013 at 01:35 PM.
Absolutely, Grumblegeezer... in WT we don't choose to use Bong, the incoming attack makes it happen (... in most cases ).
I heard the expression Wrong Bong in my previous Wing Chun lineage, so I knew what YKW was meaning. But in my old lineage this inside Bong Sau was still used - it just wasn't formed the way it is in the WT way of things.
I recently trained with an ex-EBMAS guy (he had to stop training with that group due to moving for work)... was fun! Sweaty, but fun. He trained drills full-out with me for about 2 hours. We collapsed afterwards and couldn't move - the next class had to kick us out - and then we went for a few beers, and I ended up needing to call my other half to come and get me with the car. LOL. The 15 minute walk home... I'd never have made it.
No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.
[QUOTE=Sihing73;1250893]Okay, I'll bite
Yip Man is reputed to have called Bong Sau the best or worst movement.
If done correctly it is most effective. If done incorrectly better to do nothing.
to me, a wrong or incorrect Bong Sau would be one in which you tried to use force to block a strike. IMO a proper Bong Sau is formed by your opponents energy and is used as a transitory deflection. To be effective the Bong Sau is momentary and sets the stage for something else, it does not stand alone.
As has already been mentioned on the previous thread, the elbow being raised is an unnatural position and opens the doors to attack. Perhaps this is what was being referred to [/QUOTE
The mistake (Bong Sao) can also be used as trap or a way of baiting the opponent .
If done correctly that would make you a Masterbaiter..lol
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There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..