Did Wong sheung Leung lost a challenge match to a Chow Gar mantis practioner

[Kellen Bassette]

Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

And besides the use of side stances what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?

Hold up...are you talking about that time when 5 or so Kung Fu guys went to Thailand and all lost? The same story you see on tons of different pages, all second hand with no details and a picture of a Chinese dude getting kicked in the head by a Thai boxer?

They were sent by Yip Man?? Or is this different than those "famous" 1960's China/Thailand fights?

Do you got any actual details on this?

[JPinAZ]

I never mentioned how " we " deal with kicks.

I never mentioned 'we', just questioning why you (or anyone) would advocate blocking anything that low with gaun sau.
But it's trange, becuase I thought you said this:

Gaun sao was put into slt after he was hit in the upper thigh during a fight. The Jum elbow not being low enough WSL fighting stance starts with parallel feet to avoid low leg kicks. He also fought mt and learned.

Wasn't this in reference to kicks? Or are you saying someone punched him in the thigh? So you're saying he added gaun sau to the form so he could defend PUNCHES below the waist?? Either way, using gaun sau to defend that low sounds like bad practice to me regardless the attack. Hopefully you can reclarify what you mean.

[k gledhill]

I never mentioned 'we', just questioning why you (or anyone) would advocate blocking anything that low with gaun sau.
But it's trange, becuase I thought you said this:



Wasn't this in reference to kicks? Or are you saying someone punched him in the thigh? So you're saying he added gaun sau to the form so he could defend PUNCHES below the waist?? Either way, using gaun sau to defend that low sounds like bad practice to me regardless the attack. Hopefully you can reclarify what you mean.

We think differently so its a waste to discuss.

[JPinAZ]

We think differently so its a waste to discuss.

Nice cop out - you don't know how I think, except maybe that I think it's silly to block low line attacks with your hands like you advocate here.

I tried to give you the chance to explain, but it's clear you aren't interested in backing up or explaining anything you say here. Anyway, thanks for playing (or not).

[k gledhill]

Nice cop out - you don't know how I think, except maybe that I think it's silly to block low line attacks with your hands like you advocate here.

I tried to give you the chance to explain, but it's clear you aren't interested in backing up or explaining anything you say here. Anyway, thanks for playing (or not).

Your air of haughtiness is funny....you gave me a chance ...and I passed thanks.

[LFJ]

Not sure it was in the "upper thigh". I guess it depends on what kind of shape you're in, but I don't think a blind punch to the thigh would be that much of a bother. That's a big muscle.

The opponent was said to have fallen to one knee, covered his face with one arm and punched in desperation. I'm thinking that would have likely landed on the hip/lower abdomen.

In such a case, close range and sudden, trying to block it with his leg would probably have just caused him to get knocked over. Gaang-sau would have taken care of it.

In any case, it was discussed with Yip Man who gave the advice of using gaang-sau for the situation, so it must have been reasonably applicable there instead of using the leg. Unless of course Yip Man's judgement is not to be trusted.

[BPWT.]

Unless of course Yip Man's judgement is not to be trusted.

This is kinda funny , as on this forum some members from the WSL way of things have had a flexible attitude towards acccepting the words and actions of Yip Man, and the judgements he made. :roll eyes:

But regarding the 'WSL/Yip Man low strike story', the whole thing is a little strange, IMO. Why would WSL need to ask Yip Man this question.

WSL: "The Jum Sao didn't work."
YM: "So use Gan Sao."

Isn't it obvious?

If (as LFJ suggested) the circumstances were such that footwork/legwork was not appropriate, and Jum had failed because the strike was below the motion's range, why would WSL need YM to tell him Gan is the solution? It's not as though Gan Sao was a technique/motion that WSL had never seen before.

[LFJ]

It's not as though Gan Sao was a technique/motion that WSL had never seen before.

Or it may have been. I think it was earlier in his learning of the system, before MYJ or BJ training.

[LFJ]

This is kinda funny , as on this forum some members from the WSL way of things have had a flexible attitude towards acccepting the words and actions of Yip Man, and the judgements he made.

Those he was purported to have made, that is...

[BPWT.]

Those he was purported to have made, that is...

Well, if Yip Man gives an interview and says something... and then the interview is printed and Yip Man has no problem with it...

Or it may have been. I think it was earlier in his learning of the system, before MYJ or BJ training.

I would guess so; but still it is odd that he would need to be told the solution. Who knows (rhetorical question)

[BPWT.]

In our line, SNT opens with a double Tan, to double Gan motion, followed by Kwan Sao. So we have the Gan motion appearing very early.

Later in SNT, Leung Ting modified the section where other people use Gan - in that section, for us, it is Tan, Jum, Gwat.

[LFJ]

I would guess so; but still it is odd that he would need to be told the solution. Who knows (rhetorical question)

I always thought the discussion was originally over doubts about the failure of jam-sau rather than WSL being unable to think and having to ask for the solution to the situation. It just led to Yip Man reconsidering having both options in SNT so students learned it early on.

[k gledhill]

Not sure it was in the "upper thigh". I guess it depends on what kind of shape you're in, but I don't think a blind punch to the thigh would be that much of a bother. That's a big muscle.

The opponent was said to have fallen to one knee, covered his face with one arm and punched in desperation. I'm thinking that would have likely landed on the hip/lower abdomen.

In such a case, close range and sudden, trying to block it with his leg would probably have just caused him to get knocked over. Gaang-sau would have taken care of it.

In any case, it was discussed with Yip Man who gave the advice of using gaang-sau for the situation, so it must have been reasonably applicable there instead of using the leg. Unless of course Yip Man's judgement is not to be trusted.

The elbow can't pass below the transverse plane or pass across the centerline. WSL was not a tall guy either so the strike must have been lower than his elbow while he was in a fighting stance.... Low ; ) maybe the guy was trying to punch his groin ?
We also have huen sao aka sickle hand used with lowering forearm to the transverse plane, another mid level vt strike, gaun is below the plane and only blocks.

[anerlich]

Did Wong sheung Leung lost a challenge match to a Chow Gar mantis practioner

I don't really care, but I would say:

Anyone who has never lost a match has been way too picky with his opponents. You learn more from losing than winning.

I am sceptical regarding the "deadly" Chow Gar techniques. Wing Chun is supposed to be "deadly" too according to some, but the number of corpses resulting from the fights we know about are surprisingly few. I do know of two prominent Australian WC practitioners who went it after the usual protracted run of mouth boxing after which one was hospitalised, but that's it. Don't bother asking who, it wasn't anyone from my lineage and almost certainly not yours either.

As for kung fu being a hobby, that's probably right. All the tough talkers should get back to us after they have had a few pro kickboxing and MMA matches. The opportunity is out there if you really want it.

[Dragonzbane76]

I am sceptical regarding the "deadly" Chow Gar techniques

I know next to nothing about this style, but one person I met on here totally destroyed any chance for me to think anything above "idiot" when I picture it. I'm sure those whom remember his conversations would agree.

You learn more from losing than winning

agree