Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[KPM]

Sure, it's easy to speculate. So it's easy to say that such and such might have happened after the camera stopped rolling. As we don't know, all we can do is judge/examine what we saw when the camera was rolling. Like I said, Kevin kept his balance, kept to some extent his structure, and kept a level head. He also had the balls to meet with Obasi. All to be commended, especially considering how Obasi is big, strong and was steaming in, intent on proving a point (whatever point that might have been).

But he (Kevin) also failed to exhibited any of the PBVT hallmarks he posts about; the things that are seen in all of the videos he posts of PB drills, etc. He's posted in the past about how Chi Sau instills habits, and as you say the system and its training is geared towards giving/developing instinctive responses.

So yes, you're not going to hit a kid or a beginner full in the face - due to reflex response, but the instinctive response is not connected to how hard you strike, but the fact that you strike, or intercept and strike, or angle and strike, etc. When pushed, pulled and struck, I can't see Kevin doing anything that looks like the PBVT we've all seen in other clips. Indeed, he does numerous things that he says other lineages do and which he has said are 'wrong', 'misinterpretations', etc.

As was pointed out, Kevin owes me nothing (and owes nothing to anyone else on this forum - or other forums where this clip has been critiqued). I'm saying I'm surprised. After all that Kevin has said, I was expecting more; something better and more in line with his comments here. I was hoping to see more - wanted to see him apply the art as he describes it.

What I saw, is that when faced with a big, strong guy, he had trouble playing his game and handling the momentum. When unorthodox (read: crappy ) attacks came in, Kevin didn't seem to be able to apply the VT from the drills he trains to be able to apply it.

Whatever (as Kevin would tell us). You live and learn.

This sums it up exactly for me as well. To continue to try and defend Kevin's performance in that video just keeps this thread chugging pointlessly along, now that the bottomline should be pretty clear to anyone following it.

[LFJ]

I hate snakes. They scare the b'jesus out of me. If someone said, "Hey, grab that snake," and I saw it and stood rooted to the spot from fear (a real possibility) and I therefore made absolutely no attempt to grab that snake... I would have failed to grab it. I wouldn't say, "Nope, I didn't fail because actually I made no attempt to grab it."

That's because you're confusing 'fail at' and 'fail to'. To fail means to be unsuccessful in the performance or completion of. It implies that you've made an attempt and means that you were unsuccessful. I've never been skydiving. I've also never failed at it. You said Kevin "wasn't able to" apply his stuff, which implies he made a failed attempt. Can you point out in the clip where he made a failed attempt?

Why did the clip fail to show any recognizable PBVT? I don't know.

Then don't say you know he was "having trouble applying" his stuff.

If someone said to me, "I will push you and all you have to do keep structure," then of course I wouldn't automatically hit them.

Then don't criticize Kevin for not instinctively attacking. It can obviously be controlled and isn't a failure of method.

But these two were rolling and engaging in Gor Sau. They are not just pushing, but striking too.

Neither of them referred to it as gwo-sau and I didn't see Kevin striking at all. Not a single attempted palm strike, punch, or even a jam-sau. He just let Obasi push and pull at him and maintained structure well considering Obasi's size and strength.

It is also a reflex to create an angle, to shift or step in response to something - and that too was missing in this clip.

If you do that you will dissipate the partner's energy, rather than let it test your structure- which is what Obasi said he was trying to do. The "challenge" appears to have been a structure test and Obasi gave it his all, even took Kevin to his limit, but the clip shows nothing about the failure of PBVT, as much as you really want to throw the dirt back at him. There's just honestly nothing there.

[LFJ]

To continue to try and defend Kevin's performance in that video just keeps this thread chugging pointlessly along, now that the bottomline should be pretty clear to anyone following it.

What should be clear to anyone who watches the clip with an unbiased eye, is that Kevin didn't make an attempt to apply his method. To criticize it is an obvious stretch to find something to throw back at Kevin for his critical words of your lineages. That's the real bottom line, I think. Keep in mind, I haven't met Kevin, haven't met Philipp, and don't train PBVT lineage.

[BPWT.]

That's because you're confusing 'fail at' and 'fail to'. To fail means to be unsuccessful in the performance or completion of. It implies that you've made an attempt and means that you were unsuccessful. I've never been skydiving. I've also never failed at it. You said Kevin "wasn't able to" apply his stuff, which implies he made a failed attempt. Can you point out in the clip where he made a failed attempt?

LFJ, the whole clip was a failed attempt.

Kevin learns (indeed he also teaches) PBVT. The two get into an online dispute (take a look at Kevin here and I think you can see how the might happen :roll eyes. They roll and... Obasi attacks (pushing, pulling, punching, knees, and I think an attempted kick at one point). None of that was choreographed between the two, I am sure you'd agree. So it was free-flowing. It was Gor Sau (no different to what we see from Obasi in the other Wing Chun Chi Sau videos he posts), only rather one sided in this case as Obasi clearly dominated.

So why do I think the whole thing was a failed attempt (from Kevin's side)?

Because there is no one on this planet who is more vocal about the superiority of PBVT, than Kevin Gledhill. (admittedly, Graham comes a close second and tries hard ). With a camera rolling, after internet challenges were made (at least a friendly one - along the lines of come visit me), do you really, really think that when Obasi starts attacking and using his strength, that Kevin would deliberately not use his system?

You really think that he would choose to let himself be moved all over the place, pulled into knees and walk into strikes and really not look that good... on purpose? We all know him as a PBVT instructor and you think he'd want to look like this?

Or do you think that what you saw in the clip was an example of the PBVT method testing structure? In that case, are you saying that in the PBVT way of things, they test structure by sticking to hands and chasing hands? I can't see that somehow.

Neither of them referred to it as gwo-sau and I didn't see Kevin striking at all. Not a single attempted palm strike, punch, or even a jam-sau. He just let Obasi push and pull at him and maintained structure well considering Obasi's size and strength.

Sure, they didn't refer to it as Gor Sau. But I saw one person treating it as such and the other person clinging on. Call it whatever you like, but I can't even see how this was purely a test of structure as you're saying - as I said above, testing structure by sticking - really, from a PBVT guy? Kevin has said they don't want to stick, they want to hit.

Or testing structure by retreating backwards and then letting someone get in for a strike that then resulted in him being pulled around by the neck? This all looks to me like something you'd see in Gor Sau, rather than a structure test.

I'm not taking the p*ss here, by the way, I'm really asking you genuinely.

You think this clip shows a test of structure? You think Kevin wants to be seen to be doing things that are clearly not PBVT (worse yet, to be doing things he's said don't get done in PBVT)?

To top it all - Kevin finished things by saying to Obasi that that was not how they do Chi Sau. CHI SAU. He didn't say anything about taking part in a structure test.

As for Kevin not striking, well he doesn't. In terms of whether he wanted to and tried, or not - good luck making something that out from the messiness of it all, and the hand chasing. I agree, it's hard to strike if you're sticking to someone's arms to try and stop them attacking. But again, why would Kevin do that? This shows his method how exactly?

... the clip shows nothing about the failure of PBVT, as much as you really want to throw the dirt back at him.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough regarding this. I am not talking about the failure of PBVT (I could hardly make a statement about a whole system and its method of teaching based on one video); I am saying that in this clip I think it is clear that Kevin failed to implement his PBVT.

Again, I say this because whatever Kevin is doing here it looks nothing like PBVT from everything else he's posted (whether this is now being claimed to be a structure test - which I think makes no sense - or not).

Bottom line: They roll. Obasi attacks constantly for 40 seconds. Kevin chases arms and sticks. Obasi looks like Obasi. Kevin looks like nothing else seen in a PBVT video.

[LFJ]

LFJ, the whole clip was a failed attempt.

Saw that coming.

The two get into an online dispute

About what exactly? Do you even know?

Or do you think that what you saw in the clip was an example of the PBVT method testing structure?

Obviously not, as Kevin even said in the clip that is not how they do it.

Call it whatever you like, but I can't even see how this was purely a test of structure as you're saying...
...You think this clip shows a test of structure?

I was quoting Obasi. That's what he said he was doing.

To top it all - Kevin finished things by saying to Obasi that that was not how they do Chi Sau. CHI SAU. He didn't say anything about taking part in a structure test.

Structure testing is part of chi-sau, one of the main objectives, and apparently what this "challenge" was about.

But again, why would Kevin do that? This shows his method how exactly?

Exactly, it doesn't. So what are you criticizing? You didn't see him show his method and equate that to him failing at implementing it.

I am saying that in this clip I think it is clear that Kevin failed to implement his PBVT.

"Failed to implement" doesn't mean the same as "failed at implementing", as you would like to see it.

[BPWT.]

We both see this video clip very, very differently. You think Kevin wasn't showing his method and that's why it looked crap, I think Kevin couldn't show his method, and that's why it was crap.

Either way, nothing changes. Whatever was/wasn't being shown or attempted, it's clear to me that the things going on in that clip are not for me.

There's a high probability that the next clip posted of PBVT will be some more Bong/Lap drill, so I guess we'll just keep seeing things differently regarding this particular clip.

[LFJ]

You think Kevin wasn't showing his method and that's why it looked crap,

No. I think the sh!t Obasi was showing is what made it look so terrible.

Either way, nothing changes. Whatever was/wasn't being shown or attempted, it's clear to me that the things going on in that clip are not for me.

Nor for me, and clearly Kevin as well. Funny.

[slick69]

No. I think the sh!t Obasi was showing is what made it look so terrible.



Nor for me, and clearly Kevin as well. Funny.

Well on Obassi's facebook page
@jamie
i can live with it, because there are everywhere these kind of idiots... in all lineages... but just for the info again: kevin did very bad! also because he did so many years wingchun than gone to philipp and in that 7 years he saw philipp bayer 2 times!!! 2!!!

I dont think, that shawn respects philipp anymore, but i know the next time when he touch hands with philipp, then philipp will show him giving 100%... maybe that will change shawns mind, and not a pbvt rookie that claimed himself as THE MAN in us forums... and this is not fanboy trash... To be honest, shawn is maybe a good guy but he´s now completely wrong with his thinking of his skilllevel. I also said, "come to germany i show you many guys, that will show you, you´re far away from philipp" by the way philipp also was very angry with kevin because of his skill level and talking about other lineages... because he also always says no one is untouchable and wong shun leung sigung always said, if you fight, you will get hit. regards

[LFJ]

Well on Obassi's facebook page
@jamie
i can live with it, because there are everywhere these kind of idiots... in all lineages... but just for the info again: kevin did very bad! also because he did so many years wingchun than gone to philipp and in that 7 years he saw philipp bayer 2 times!!! 2!!!

I dont think, that shawn respects philipp anymore, but i know the next time when he touch hands with philipp, then philipp will show him giving 100%... maybe that will change shawns mind, and not a pbvt rookie that claimed himself as THE MAN in us forums... and this is not fanboy trash... To be honest, shawn is maybe a good guy but he´s now completely wrong with his thinking of his skilllevel. I also said, "come to germany i show you many guys, that will show you, you´re far away from philipp" by the way philipp also was very angry with kevin because of his skill level and talking about other lineages... because he also always says no one is untouchable and wong shun leung sigung always said, if you fight, you will get hit. regards

I don't know, since I've never met him. I gave the benefit of the doubt because I honestly didn't see him even attempt to do anything of the PBVT method. If it is in fact because he couldn't, then as I said, I assumed it's because he's one of those "seminar students", like the ones under WSL that he and the others put down for being such and not getting the whole picture.

Props to Obasi for being a "wing chun ronin" and doing his thing and trying to learn, but he has yet to come to an understanding of good wing chun. In my opinion, what he did was still worse than Kevin, even though Kevin didn't mount any sort of offense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It really is quite simple and it has very little to do with there was "chi sao" or a challenge or anything silly like that.
It was quite simply an example of what happens when ingrained motor skills meet something OUTSIDE what they are used to.
Kevin is used to Chi Sao under method "A" and Shawn exposed him to method "B".
When you are NOT used to the "puzzle" that is being presented, you have to adapt to it as best you can.
That is why pro fighters have "feeling out" rounds.
The more "narrow" and "system specific" the drill is, like in the example of Chi Sao, the far easier it is to be "puzzled" when presented with something outside the usual that you are used to.

Shawn "manhandled" the situation because that is his "chi sao", or at least how he choose to present it at that time.

Kevin either didn't have the "tools" to deal with that or chose not to, only Kevin knows for sure.
Either way, all that happened is that one guys style of Chi Sao was different than the others and that Kevin didn't addressed it as well as perhaps he should have.

[slick69]

It really is quite simple and it has very little to do with there was "chi sao" or a challenge or anything silly like that.
It was quite simply an example of what happens when ingrained motor skills meet something OUTSIDE what they are used to.
Kevin is used to Chi Sao under method "A" and Shawn exposed him to method "B".
When you are NOT used to the "puzzle" that is being presented, you have to adapt to it as best you can.
That is why pro fighters have "feeling out" rounds.
The more "narrow" and "system specific" the drill is, like in the example of Chi Sao, the far easier it is to be "puzzled" when presented with something outside the usual that you are used to.

Shawn "manhandled" the situation because that is his "chi sao", or at least how he choose to present it at that time.

Kevin either didn't have the "tools" to deal with that or chose not to, only Kevin knows for sure.
Either way, all that happened is that one guys style of Chi Sao was different than the others and that Kevin didn't addressed it as well as perhaps he should have.

Kevin has been an abusive big mouth in the forum for years, insulting anything that was not PBVT. If this clip was not about him, no one would care. Obassi did what Obassi does...

[LFJ]

It was quite simply an example of what happens when ingrained motor skills meet something OUTSIDE what they are used to.
Kevin is used to Chi Sao under method "A" and Shawn exposed him to method "B".
When you are NOT used to the "puzzle" that is being presented, you have to adapt to it as best you can.

I don't understand what's so hard about it. The system is very simple and built around the centerline theory and straight punch. The biggest obstacle is the fighter who keeps center very well. Obasi was exposed and overextended so many times; when there's nothing in the way, go forward. It should be much easier to deal with than what one is used to in well structured chi-sau. I agree mostly with what Jim said earlier. Just start punching.

[Vajramusti]

It really is quite simple and it has very little to do with there was "chi sao" or a challenge or anything silly like that.
It was quite simply an example of what happens when ingrained motor skills meet something OUTSIDE what they are used to.
Kevin is used to Chi Sao under method "A" and Shawn exposed him to method "B".
When you are NOT used to the "puzzle" that is being presented, you have to adapt to it as best you can.
That is why pro fighters have "feeling out" rounds.
The more "narrow" and "system specific" the drill is, like in the example of Chi Sao, the far easier it is to be "puzzled" when presented with something outside the usual that you are used to.

Shawn "manhandled" the situation because that is his "chi sao", or at least how he choose to present it at that time.

Kevin either didn't have the "tools" to deal with that or chose not to, only Kevin knows for sure.
Either way, all that happened is that one guys style of Chi Sao was different than the others and that Kevin didn't addressed it as well as perhaps he should have.

--------------------------------------------------------
IMO- Shawn is just pushing- not really chi sao, KG is bewildered and not doing much...

an unproductive thread is the result. If KG had started this thread, my hunch is that it would have disappeared.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't understand what's so hard about it. The system is very simple and built around the centerline theory and straight punch. The biggest obstacle is the fighter who keeps center very well. Obasi was exposed and overextended so many times; when there's nothing in the way, go forward. It should be much easier to deal with than what one is used to in well structured chi-sau. I agree mostly with what Jim said earlier. Just start punching.

This is not about the SYSTEM of WC but about a particular DRILL and the often-abused verbage that is " doesn't look like WC" even though no one can pin down what WC is SUPPOSE to look like in a "live" situation ( opponent is actively resisting).
I agree that WC, in terms of fighting, is simple and direct. It claims as much over and over.
Of course, as we also see over and over and over. something gets lost in the translation when WC practitioners actually cross hands OUTSIDE their own kwoons and VS resisting opponents.
Even in controlled circumstances like the one in the video clip.
WHY that happens is the issue at hand, IMO.
And IMO the reason is that far too many WC practitioners spend time with "dead" drills VS one another instead of actually FIGHTING with their system.

[LFJ]

And IMO the reason is that far too many WC practitioners spend time with "dead" drills VS one another instead of actually FIGHTING with their system.

Completely agree! I've seen too many schools, even in the heartland, HK, that only work on forms for a bit and then endless hours of chi-sau and seemingly never actually spar- even amongst themselves. Chi-sau can be said to be the 'heart' of wing chun, but addiction to it will lead to a fatal heart attack in the real!