Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[tc101]

They are different and shouldn't not be compared. Somebody can have no knowledge of Wing Chun but destroy you in sparing, what does that prove? We are talking about who has the most skill at a Wing Chun technique level. This is why Kevin & Obasi met!

Chi sau is a wing chun exercise that can be done cooperatively or competitively. It is also an exercise that allows us to use our wing chun tools to develop and sharpen our wing chun tools. Our performance in chi so reflects our ability to use the wing chun tools against a live partner/opponent at less than fighting intensity. If you can't use the wing chun tools in chi sau then you certainly will not be able to use them in sparring or fighting.

[stonecrusher69]

Chi sau is a wing chun exercise that can be done cooperatively or competitively. It is also an exercise that allows us to use our wing chun tools to develop and sharpen our wing chun tools. Our performance in chi so reflects our ability to use the wing chun tools against a live partner/opponent at less than fighting intensity. If you can't use the wing chun tools in chi sau then you certainly will not be able to use them in sparring or fighting.

I have to disagree, IMO If your chi sao skills are poor it just means your chi sao skills are poor. If you train to fight you will be able to fight,although with chi sao train one can graudually get there.

[tc101]

I have to disagree, IMO If your chi sao skills are poor it just means your chi sao skills are poor. If you train to fight you will be able to fight,although with chi sao train one can graudually get there.

Are we talking wing chun skills here? Please explain to me how a person with well-developed wing chun skills would not be able to use them in chi sau?

[stonecrusher69]

Are we talking wing chun skills here? Please explain to me how a person with well-developed wing chun skills would not be able to use them in chi sau?

Depends how you define "Well-developed wing chun skills" If you mean fighting skills then that is easy. Fighting and chi sao develope different skills. I might be able to fight well but if I never trained in Chi sao agaianst someone who is very good at it will wipe the floor with me.However,in a real fight, unless he has my skill set he will lose..

[tc101]

Depends how you define "Well-developed wing chun skills" If you mean fighting skills then that is easy. Fighting and chi sao develope different skills. I might be able to fight well but if I never trained in Chi sao agaianst someone who is very good at it will wipe the floor with me.However,in a real fight, unless he has my skill set he will lose..

Ok here is how I see it, chi sau to wing chun is sort and I emphasize sort of like what hitting the mitts is to boxers. Those drills or exercises let you focus on, practice, and sharpen certain skills that you will use in fighting. Does being good at chi sau or the mitts mean you have developed your fighting? No since that only comes through sparring. But those drills are a stepping stone to developing your sparring. I have never met or heard of a good boxer/fighter that was not adept at the mitts. Could someone say you can be a good boxer and not be good at the mitts? I do not see how since that is an integral part of a boxers training. Same with chi sau for a wing chun person.

[GlennR]

Ok here is how I see it, chi sau to wing chun is sort and I emphasize sort of like what hitting the mitts is to boxers. Those drills or exercises let you focus on, practice, and sharpen certain skills that you will use in fighting. Does being good at chi sau or the mitts mean you have developed your fighting? No since that only comes through sparring. But those drills are a stepping stone to developing your sparring. I have never met or heard of a good boxer/fighter that was not adept at the mitts. Could someone say you can be a good boxer and not be good at the mitts? I do not see how since that is an integral part of a boxers training. Same with chi sau for a wing chun person.

Not all boxers have used focus mitts to train.

Ali, and I'm pretty sure sugar ray robinson, jus didn't use them.

[stonecrusher69]

Ok here is how I see it, chi sau to wing chun is sort and I emphasize sort of like what hitting the mitts is to boxers. Those drills or exercises let you focus on, practice, and sharpen certain skills that you will use in fighting. Does being good at chi sau or the mitts mean you have developed your fighting? No since that only comes through sparring. But those drills are a stepping stone to developing your sparring. I have never met or heard of a good boxer/fighter that was not adept at the mitts. Could someone say you can be a good boxer and not be good at the mitts? I do not see how since that is an integral part of a boxers training. Same with chi sau for a wing chun person.

I agree with most of what you are saying," drills are stepping stones" like pad work,but what i'm saying is that it's still possible to be a good wing chun fighter without training in any chi sao, and even if your a good fighter it does not mean your chi sao will also be good as both develop different skills.Some wing chun lineages do very little chi sao yet can still fight as good or better then lineages that put a much greater emphasis on chi sao. I have done some friendly sparring with wing chun sifu's who do almost no chi sao yet can fight well,so from first hand experience I know this to be true. However, i don't want to give the impression that chi sao is useless,to the contrary,it is not. Chi sao gives an added benefit to one's arsenal and IMO needed to truly master wing chun.

[Frost]

Not all boxers have used focus mitts to train.

Ali, and I'm pretty sure sugar ray robinson, jus didn't use them.

true and theres another point as well

pad work mimics an actual fight for a boxer, you use the same footwork, guard, slipping bobbing and weaving you would use in a fight, you work on the distancing and timing you would employ in said fight, the role of the pad feeder is very important and when done properly the pads should be held tight and the pad man should throw out shots as if you were sparing, he should make you react as if you were in an actual boxing match. Good pad work works a lot the elements found in sparring and actually fighting, but it is not used to replace sparring at all, simply to aid it.

I have never seen anyone claim Chi sao mimics an actual fight, or works on timing distance reaction in the same way, chi sao is probably more akin to the use of the speed ball in boxing and the skipping rope in that people cant agree how useful it is, what its actual carry over is to a fight, what its actually for and lots of fighters do fine without ever touching them

And you will notice I said GOOD pad work works the above, bad pad work (and there is lots of this about: pad man not moving, pad man slapping into your punches and ruining your distancing, pads held too far apart and too low etc, too long and unrealistic combinations called etc) can harm not help a fighter…any drill done by people who you don’t understand the purpose of said drill fully can do this………

[Wayfaring]

Not all boxers have used focus mitts to train.

Ali, and I'm pretty sure sugar ray robinson, jus didn't use them.

Focus mitts are typically a tool used by a trainer like Freddie Roach to build specific skills. Other tools used are a midsection pad, medicine ball, and simply using another set of boxing gloves as focus mitts.

The point being in this one is that boxing has tools and drills they use that are proven to work. Heavy bags to build power, speed bags to build speed and timing, ropes across the ring for training bobbing and punches, jump ropes to build legs, and lots of other little tricks. Boxing is actually a great sport to look to what they do to build attributes.

Typically if boxing trainers don't do the focus mitts, they usually do a midsection pad and boxing gloves as focus mitts.

[Ali. R]

It’s one very important part that the mitts do actually develop, and that’s defense; and a lot of so-called good trainers can’t teach it (that well), and that’s because they never developed it themselves. Therefore their fighters never had it (good) unless he/she was just talented.

It’s a funny thing that defense is rarely talked about or even discussed, and that’s because it’s the most real and genuine element within a fighting system and in most cases the hardest thing to do or develop.

This is why you have so many sloppy fighters, because they don’t know what to do to keep from being hit, and can’t find or have any clue after getting hit.


Take care,

[Wayfaring]

So kevin is pretty much gone from this forum over this clip?

[GlennR]

So kevin is pretty much gone from this forum over this clip?

Looks that way.

Maybe Bayer has barred him from here

[KPM]

Looks that way.

Maybe Bayer has barred him from here

I've told Kevin on several occasions in the past that his style of discourse was just giving PB a bad name. So maybe what you suggest is true!

[Grumblegeezer]

I've told Kevin on several occasions in the past that his style of discourse was just giving PB a bad name. So maybe what you suggest is true!

Well that is exactly the way Kevin and Co. affected my outlook. Just based on youtube clips and what I'd heard, I came onto this forum with a pretty positive view on PB-WSLVT. Kevin's posts really soured that. They also seemed to make this forum a pretty contentious place. I find hanging out here a lot more enjoyable since he's gone "on vacation".

[slick69]

Well that is exactly the way Kevin and Co. affected my outlook. Just based on youtube clips and what I'd heard, I came onto this forum with a pretty positive view on PB-WSLVT. Kevin's posts really soured that. They also seemed to make this forum a pretty contentious place. I find hanging out here a lot more enjoyable since he's gone "on vacation".

His crowd were so anti anything not Phil Bayer Wing Chun, i never saw why they were on the forum in the first place, other than to cause trouble