Inside the Yik Kam Cho Gar vs Hendrik Santos CONTROVERSY

[theo]

Both Emei writing and the SLT kuit have been passed down and separately preserved in the Emei and Cho family. From Jim's report, GM Fu confirms the YK SLT kuit contains Emei kuit, therefore 1848 YK SLT contains Emei. Separate writing from two different sources found to contain the same content, in 1848.

Hendrik has already explained some differences of his kuit and other Cho family kuit in previous threads. The example he showed had CLF kuit in there. It's possible the kuits identified as Emei by GM Fu likely exist in other Cho family branch kuits as well, but that they added to them, or took some out, etc.

GM Fu is saying it is Emei because it matches the Emei writing. Now you're trying to make him look bad for telling the truth?

Hendrik, how many generations or how many 30 years passed since 1848 ? According to what you said, today there should have no wck, because all without the core of Emei since 1848. Without the core of Emei, Yik Kam died out, Cho family die out, Cho Hung Choy died out. Today, only Hendrik is lucky, only he knows the core of Emei, he is the only one who know wck, not just ykwc only

Is the ykwc kuit provided by Hendrik getting proved ? Why there are so much difference from Cho's family ? Did he make changes on his kuits look like similar to the Emei kuits, like what he changed the wording on SCWC kuit to suit his emei ? Who knows.

On marketing, GM Fu of course will say ykwc kuit look very similar to Emei, to attract more wck people to go to Emei. They have mutual benefits and their agenda clear there. The MIT emei qigong workshop is definitely a marketing strategy show only.

[Cho Gar]

Now, I don't want to get into this hendrik bashing thing because I've got no interest in it but I just wanted to make something clear-
The part of our kuit that hendrik is telling you came from CLF is translated as something like " bong São whips like a dragons tail" or something similar.
Now does that sound more like CLF or Wing Chun?

[HybridWarrior]

Basically WGAF about what any of these doofuses claim.

Wise words!!!!

[PalmStriker]

Now, I don't want to get into this hendrik bashing thing because I've got no interest in it but I just wanted to make something clear-
The part of our kuit that hendrik is telling you came from CLF is translated as something like " bong São whips like a dragons tail" or something similar.
Now does that sound more like CLF or Wing Chun?

So true, bong sao. Yui Choi lineage knows this also.

[FongSung]

Now, I don't want to get into this hendrik bashing thing because I've got no interest in it but I just wanted to make something clear-
The part of our kuit that hendrik is telling you came from CLF is translated as something like " bong São whips like a dragons tail" or something similar.
Now does that sound more like CLF or Wing Chun?

As I mentioned here:
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...11#post1267011

Judge for yourself:
念 頭 膀 手 龍 擺 尾
Lin tau bong2 sau2 lung4 baai2 mei5
The idea of Bong Sau is like a dragon flipping/swaying its tail

落 睜 夾 膀 虎 跳 蹄
Lok6 jang1 gip6 bong2 fu2 tiu3 tai4
Lower and close in your elbows like a tiger ready to pounce forward

二 字 拑 陽 力 滾 身
Yi6 ji6 kim yeung4 lik6 kwan2 san1
The character 2 clamping stance will give you yang energy throughout your body - (Does anyone recognise this from some recent youtube video's )

Many southern arts use this phrase 龍 擺 尾 in different context's.


The most important thing to remember is that kuit is a learn aid helping a student to remember what he is taught by his sifu.
IMHO It is not necessary to have the kuit to learn from your sifu. But you need your sifu to learn from the kuit to understand the context and meaning meant by the writer.

At the end of the day it has to work for you and you need to understand why and what you are doing if you have had to go to other systems to make sense of it and it works for that great.
Where it comes from, when it was written and by whom will not help your progress understanding what works for you will. Simple as that IMO.

All this ruckus and name calling about Yik Kam / Cho Ga /SCWC/ SLT Kuit etc is just a storm in a teacup and not benefiting anyone's progress and development.
If you agree with it use it if not forget it.

As for hiding and being "secret in-door people" that is far from the truth we are very open these days we just don't have much interest in forums and trying to prove anything to others.
If anyone is interest in our system of Ban Chung Wing Chun and happen to be travelling through Singapore feel free to contact me to touch hands, yam cha or whatever. My skill is not so good but I can give you a taste of what we do. I am not interested in video-ing or celebrities just people wanting to exchange.

Carlos Kennerley
Carlos_kennerley@hotmail.com

[Hendrik]

Now, I don't want to get into this hendrik bashing thing because I've got no interest in it but I just wanted to make something clear-
The part of our kuit that hendrik is telling you came from CLF is translated as something like " bong São whips like a dragons tail" or something similar.
Now does that sound more like CLF or Wing Chun?

Look at the attached photo of a version of Cho family SNT kuit .


Aware of it or not, There are signatures from both CLF and Emei 12 zhuang.


0. The translation of the kuit is

Nim tao (SNT) bong sau dragon wiggle tail.

1.
When Frank the CLF sifu can identify it, one better admit it. To argue it just to put one into a stuck position.

2.
There are kuits in this photo which is from the YKSLT full kuit which I inherit from my sifu lineage. And these are from emei 12 zhuang.

3. Now the YKSLT full kuit and set has been identified and verify to be Emei 12 zhuang related. By the Emei 12 zhuang gate keeper, with his signature. It is what it is. One needs to accept it.



It doesn't matter it is me or any grandmaster or any inheritor or anyone.

When the evidences is from CLF one admit it, when it is from Emei 12 Zhuang one admit it.
To not aware of it is not sin, to deny the facts will put one in the bad position such as Closing one ears stealing a bell. advance transitional Chinese martial artists will know the facts.


Why is it so difficult to accept Emei 12 zhuang and CLF elements exist in the above kuit?

Didnt it is know in the history of Cho family consist of evolution of Gm Cho Dak Shing who fuse CLF with WCK ?
many set created by him has both CLF and Wing Chun kuen signature. iE the Jeet kuen or joint fist set where it switch between CLF move and Wing Chun kuen move back and forth?



Now the YKSLT kuit and set from my sifu lineage has been proven to be emei 12 zhuang and white crane based. No content of CLF.
We know it is the pre Cho Dak Shing Era Yik kam teaching .
That is good news for every wcners and Cho family members. It is a piece of intangible culture heritage from the red boat wing chun kuen.

[Hendrik]

As I mentioned here:
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...11#post1267011

Judge for yourself:
念 頭 膀 手 龍 擺 尾
Lin tau bong2 sau2 lung4 baai2 mei5
The idea of Bong Sau is like a dragon flipping/swaying its tail

落 睜 夾 膀 虎 跳 蹄
Lok6 jang1 gip6 bong2 fu2 tiu3 tai4
Lower and close in your elbows like a tiger ready to pounce forward

二 字 拑 陽 力 滾 身
Yi6 ji6 kim yeung4 lik6 kwan2 san1
The character 2 clamping stance will give you yang energy throughout your body - (Does anyone recognise this from some recent youtube video's )

Many southern arts use this phrase 龍 擺 尾 in different context's.


The most important thing to remember is that kuit is a learn aid helping a student to remember what he is taught by his sifu.
IMHO It is not necessary to have the kuit to learn from your sifu. But you need your sifu to learn from the kuit to understand the context and meaning meant by the writer.

At the end of the day it has to work for you and you need to understand why and what you are doing if you have had to go to other systems to make sense of it and it works for that great.
Where it comes from, when it was written and by whom will not help your progress understanding what works for you will. Simple as that IMO.

All this ruckus and name calling about Yik Kam / Cho Ga /SCWC/ SLT Kuit etc is just a storm in a teacup and not benefiting anyone's progress and development.
If you agree with it use it if not forget it.

As for hiding and being "secret in-door people" that is far from the truth we are very open these days we just don't have much interest in forums and trying to prove anything to others.
If anyone is interest in our system of Ban Chung Wing Chun and happen to be travelling through Singapore feel free to contact me to touch hands, yam cha or whatever. My skill is not so good but I can give you a taste of what we do. I am not interested in video-ing or celebrities just people wanting to exchange.

Carlos Kennerley
Carlos_kennerley@hotmail.com

We can reason all we like.

The kuit
Nim tao (SNT) bong sau dragon wiggle tail.

When The CLF players like Frank Sifu see it , they know " dragon wiggle tail "is from their signature or their famous known CLF couplet



Same thing,
When the Emei 12 zhuang players and Gatekerper sees their signatures, they know it.



You are free to admit it or not, I choose to accept it and acknowledge it. Give credit to where credit from.


The traditional Chinese martial arts community is watching , it is cast in stone now in the history of Wck, since the gate keeper of Emei has verify and signed .
What is good to not admit when black and white is clear? This is a matter of Yik kam and the red boat Wck ancestors, I choose to accept it because no one in the present time can go back in history and over write Yik Kam.

You are free to choose your path. I respect everyone's decision.

[FongSung]

Look at the attached photo of a version of Cho family SNT kuit .


Aware of it or not, There are signatures from both CLF and Emei 12 zhuang.


1.
When Frank the CLF sifu can identify it, one better admit it. To argue it just to put one into a stuck position.

2.
There are kuits in this photo which is from the YKSLT full kuit which I inherit from my sifu lineage. And these are from emei 12 zhuang.

3. Now the YKSLT full kuit and set has been identified and verify to be Emei 12 zhuang related. By the Emei 12 zhuang gate keeper, with his signature. It is what it is. One needs to accept it.



It doesn't matter it is me or any grandmaster or any inheritor or anyone.

When the evidences is from CLF one admit it, when it is from Emei 12 Zhuang one admit it.
To not aware of it is not sin, to deny the facts will put one in the bad position such as Closing one ear to stole a bell. advance transitional Chinese martial artists will know the facts.


Why is it so difficult to accept Emei 12 zhuang and CLF elements exist in the above kuit?

Didnt it is know in the history of Cho family consist of evolution of Gm Cho Dak Shing who fuse CLF with WCK ?
many set created by him has both CLF and Wing Chun kuen signature. iE the Jeet kuen or joint fist set where it switch between CLF move and Wing Chun kuen move back and forth?



Now the YKSLT kuit and set has been proven to be emei 12 zhuang and white crane based. No content of CLF. We know it is the pre Cho Dak Shing Era Yik kam teaching . That is good news for every wcners and Cho family members. It is a piece of intangible culture heritage from the red boat wing chun kuen.

1. Many southern arts have these three character phrase LOL.
2. Very good. From your Sigung GGM Cho Yin On pass this Kuit SLT Kor Kuit and many others to GM Ku.
3. Very good. I have no idea on Ermei stuffs and have no time or interest in Ermei but I wish you well in your research.

Has I have stated before Cho Shun (father of Cho Dak Sing) was one of the last disciples of the founder of CLF. So yes Cho Family do have CLF.
Our WC SLT is only WC but the CLF forms were modified with WC principles.

I have no more interest to repeatedly argue with Hendrik, I am happy with what I have, so I will not be reply posting to him again but I do wish him all the very best with his research.

[Hendrik]

1. Many southern arts have these three character phrase LOL.
2. Very good. From your Sigung GGM Cho Yin On pass this Kuit SLT Kor Kuit and many others to GM Ku.
3. Very good. I have no idea on Ermei stuffs and have no time or interest in Ermei but I wish you well in your research.

Has I have stated before Cho Shun (father of Cho Dak Sing) was one of the last disciples of the founder of CLF. So yes Cho Family do have CLF.
Our WC SLT is only WC but the CLF forms were modified with WC principles.

I have no more interest to repeatedly argue with Hendrik, I am happy with what I have, so I will not be reply posting to him again but I do wish him all the very best with his research.

What I present is no longer a research ,

stories from different sources are great reference but ultimately Facts and evidence is the truth.



It is already a proven facts by envidence,
many WCK sifus from different Wck lineages with The gate keeper of Emei 12 zhuang had witness it in Boston last week.


The YKSLT set with four parts and its full kuen kuit from Yik kam of the red boat opera now has become an intangible Culture heritage of WCK. It is an open platform and own by all Wcners east or west.





There is no

Yik-Kam, ChoGar vs HendrikSantos. CONTROVERSY.

There is Wck intangible culture heritage shared to all wcners equally from a lineage of Yik Kam ChoGar by Hendrik santo.

[Hendrik]

A,

One might say

"Many southern arts use this phrase 龍 擺 尾 in different context's."

To defend the following kuit of Cho family from CLF.



However, that is not a good reason, because more evidence is within the kuit of this lineage pointing toward Choy lee fut couplet.

As the attached photo. As mark,

One can see the character Tiger and its position in the B line which is shared between the Cho family kuit and CLF couplet.

The tiger match the dragon at the same position in both the CLF and the Cho Gar kuit. That cannot be a coincident.

There is no coincident when these signatures of the CLF couplet is within the kuit.

These are the proof that CLF is one of the elements of this lineage.







B,

Thus, contradict to many who accuse my late sifu Gm Cho Hung Choy practice CLF instead of YKWCK.

The facts show The case is actually opposite.

Cho Hung Choy kuit is identified and verify with Emei 12 zhuang and Fujian White crane. There is no trace of CLF.


C,

One needs to based and back up what one claim with facts. Instead of just accuse baseless as one like.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1268049]What I present is no longer a research ,

stories from different sources are great reference but ultimately Facts and evidence is the truth.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- you are still passing off your own version of your lineage story as history,

This is an example of the well known logical fallacy- note:

Example:

Never has a book been subjected to such pitiless search for error as the Holy Bible. Both reverent and agnostic critics have ploughed and harrowed its passages; but through it all God's word has stood supreme…. This is proof…that here we have a revelation from God; for…if God reveals himself to man…, he will preserve a record of that revelation in order that men who follow may know his way and will.

Source: Hillyer Straton, Baptists: Their Message and Mission (1941), p. 49

Analysis
Example
If it's raining then the streets are wet.
The streets are wet.
Therefore, it's raining.
------------------------------------------------

You really can't speak for all wing chun people. History is not a hard science but neither is good history a
restating your own story.
Page after page of quasi religious dogmatism.

[Hendrik]

------------------------------------------------

You really can't speak for all wing chun people. History is not a hard science but neither is good history a
restating your own story.
Page after page of quasi religious dogmatism.

1. I don't speak for all wing chun people.

I present only a fact data point exist in 1848 red boat Wck preserve in my own lineage.



2. I don't deal with history , or story.

I present hard evidence of trace able Ancient Chinese martial art DNA from multiple sources.




3. Got nothing to do with religion. I leave it to wcners to take it or leave it.

[zuti car]

1. I don't speak for all wing chun people.

I present only a fact data point exist in 1848 red boat Wck preserve in my own lineage.



2. I don't deal with history , or story.

I present hard evidence of trace able Ancient Chinese martial art DNA from multiple sources.




3. Got nothing to do with religion. I leave it to wcners to take it or leave it.

1. I haven't seen any fact from you ,from what we know wing chun might not even exist in 1848. All you presented here are stories without any evidence

2. Yes you do, that is the only thing you deal with, stories .I do agree you do not deal with history .Again, there isn't any real evidence to support your story. About martial arts DNA , that is your construction and it is a stupid one. If you actually knew anything about DNA you would not use that kind of comparation
. Anyway ,a thing called martial art DNA does not exist , that is your invention ,made to help you support your stories

3.Than leave the address of that museum , you know which one , and I will take it right away

[zuti car]

Look at the attached photo of a version of Cho family SNT kuit .


Aware of it or not, There are signatures from both CLF and Emei 12 zhuang.


0. The translation of the kuit is

Nim tao (SNT) bong sau dragon wiggle tail.

1.
When Frank the CLF sifu can identify it, one better admit it. To argue it just to put one into a stuck position.

2.
There are kuits in this photo which is from the YKSLT full kuit which I inherit from my sifu lineage. And these are from emei 12 zhuang.

3. Now the YKSLT full kuit and set has been identified and verify to be Emei 12 zhuang related. By the Emei 12 zhuang gate keeper, with his signature. It is what it is. One needs to accept it.



It doesn't matter it is me or any grandmaster or any inheritor or anyone.

When the evidences is from CLF one admit it, when it is from Emei 12 Zhuang one admit it.
To not aware of it is not sin, to deny the facts will put one in the bad position such as Closing one ears stealing a bell. advance transitional Chinese martial artists will know the facts.


Why is it so difficult to accept Emei 12 zhuang and CLF elements exist in the above kuit?

Didnt it is know in the history of Cho family consist of evolution of Gm Cho Dak Shing who fuse CLF with WCK ?
many set created by him has both CLF and Wing Chun kuen signature. iE the Jeet kuen or joint fist set where it switch between CLF move and Wing Chun kuen move back and forth?



Now the YKSLT kuit and set from my sifu lineage has been proven to be emei 12 zhuang and white crane based. No content of CLF.
We know it is the pre Cho Dak Shing Era Yik kam teaching .
That is good news for every wcners and Cho family members. It is a piece of intangible culture heritage from the red boat wing chun kuen.

Next time when you do the forgery , let Chinese person to do the writing . I have shown this to several of my friends here, they are not involved in any martial arts but they all have University level education. They all agree this was not written by Chinese , and certainly not something written in 19th Century, not to mention simplified Chinese character you put inside by mistake . Better luck next time with your "evidence"

[GlennR]

1. I don't speak for all wing chun people.

I present only a fact data point exist in 1848 red boat Wck preserve in my own lineage.



2. I don't deal with history , or story.

I present hard evidence of trace able Ancient Chinese martial art DNA from multiple sources.




3. Got nothing to do with religion. I leave it to wcners to take it or leave it.

1. Yes you do you moron. You put forward your evidence and THEN give YOUR conclusions of this shoddy evidence which is basically "all WC stems from emei"............ ALL WC, not yours.......... ALL
What part of that doesnt cover everyone????

2. Fine, then what the address for the Temp[le Zuti has been asking about??

3. Fine... youve put forward your case, now go away