Ip Man Wing Chun?

[BPWT..]

Interesting. Aside from lineage and who attends whose birthday parties, what technical differences do you see as existing between the competing lines of YMWC?

That's a huge question to answer. So many YM lines, each with little differences, some with larger ones. Some differences in forms, some in approach to Chi Sau, some with regards to power (generation of, use of), some in how the concepts are interpreted, some in body method, some in stepping methods. The list is endless.

Perhaps the biggest point of contention between, for example, me (LTWT line) and the PBVT line (Graham)/WSL line (LFJ) would be Chi Sau - what its for, what its meant for, how it is trained.

Take a look back in the forum pages - do a search - there have been pages and pages, reams and reams, of discussion (read: argument, slanging matches, back patting, etc). Often from a technical standpoint, or a conceptual standpoint, rather than a pure lineage one (when the two things can, on occasion, be separated).

[BPWT..]

Here's a clip of Chris Collins. He describes forward pressure in Chi Sau, and how you should train this with a partner. Simple, LTWT, as it is taught in Hong Kong. Nothing illogical about it.

Maybe its different to the WSL method. Maybe it's different to PB's interpretation of the WSL method. But the method being shown here, and the simple idea behind it, is the way LT has taught it since having lessons with YM and having opened his own schools in Hong Kong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_JO8QEabjI

Interesting.

Interesting as in you find it logical, good; or interesting as in you find it illogical, bad, or just different to how you train?

[Vajramusti]

Interesting as in you find it logical, good; or interesting as in you find it illogical, bad, or just different to how you train?

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No preaching.

Different assumptions probably on structure from LT and WSL ad what I do.
Seems like a lot of muscling in the video you put up. But hey--- there is diversity in wing chun.

[Faux Newbie]

Interesting as in you find it logical, good; or interesting as in you find it illogical, bad, or just different to how you train?

Interesting in the sense that the arms are not so stiff, heavier hitting through softness. I do a southern internal style that has some common ground, but some very different approaches overall, so what I do is not a determining factor. I just found it interesting, would have to examine and think more on it to say more.

[LFJ]

Here's a clip of Chris Collins. He describes forward pressure in Chi Sau, and how you should train this with a partner. Simple, LTWT, as it is taught in Hong Kong. Nothing illogical about it.

There's nothing illogical about anything to someone unaware of anything more logical.

It's hard to tell what exactly he's doing with his back to the camera, but I just see a bunch of flailing noodle arms and no forward pressure as I would understand it. This kind of thing might work when both partners are just standing there flailing at each other, not really exchanging anything. A lot of complex things can be developed and thought to work under such circumstances. Bring them into another situation and...

Maybe its different to the WSL method. Maybe it's different to PB's interpretation of the WSL method. But the method being shown here, and the simple idea behind it, is the way LT has taught it since having lessons with YM and having opened his own schools in Hong Kong.

Even granting pureness and legitimacy of lineage (which we aren't), it's ultimately the substance that counts and means anything. If it were very good it would speak for itself and his lineage wouldn't need to be brought into question.

[BPWT..]

There's nothing illogical about anything to someone unaware of anything more logical.

It's a nice soundbite, but I don't really agree with this. Plenty of times in life (sports, work, relationships) I've known that something wasn't really logical even if I wasn't aware of an exact better option at the time.

It's hard to tell what exactly he's doing with his back to the camera, but I just see a bunch of flailing noodle arms and no forward pressure as I would understand it. This kind of thing might work when both partners are just standing there flailing at each other, not really exchanging anything.

Granted, you have to feel things to really know them in Chi Sau. But I think you should, as an experienced Wing Chunner, be able to see what is happening, and if you add that to what he is saying. The roll (Poon Sau) looks relaxed, but there is forward pressure - it's the springboard that lets the arms fill the gap ("I just want my arms to go").

Everything, then, is receiving, redirecting, adjustments in angle, filling gaps that open or are created - all flowing with a relaxed force. LLHS, LSJC. ("You're a Wing Tsun guy, learn the Wing Tsun way") - he's talking, of course, about the methodology ("When I'm letting my arms go I don't think about trying to be relaxed or trying to be heavy, I just want the natural weight of my arms to go").

Even with his back partially to the camera I think you can see this.

A lot of complex things can be developed and thought to work under such circumstances. Bring them into another situation and...

The point I was trying to make when I said that this is "simple, LTWT, as it is taught in Hong Kong" is that it isn't complex.

Bringing them into another situation... well, this is what Chris is all about - functionality. He knows what it's like to fight (competition, on the street, in a war zone), unarmed and with weapons, so he's not teaching a methodology that he knows doesn't translate.

If it were very good it would speak for itself and his lineage wouldn't need to be brought into question.

Let's be honest. The people who bring lineage into question are those from another lineage who often want to try and prove something regarding their own. Like I said before. To someone like Graham, LTWT can't come from Yip Man because if it does, then it invalidates (in his mind) all the things he's been posting for years on forums like this one.

[LFJ]

It's a nice soundbite, but I don't really agree with this. Plenty of times in life (sports, work, relationships) I've known that something wasn't really logical even if I wasn't aware of an exact better option at the time.

Have you never been convinced that something you believe is logical and then learned better? That's my point. Until you learn better, you'll continue on believing there's nothing illogical about it.

he's talking, of course, about the methodology ("When I'm letting my arms go I don't think about trying to be relaxed or trying to be heavy, I just want the natural weight of my arms to go").

The explanation sounds like how it looks. Just letting your flailing noodle arms go.

Bringing them into another situation... well, this is what Chris is all about - functionality. He knows what it's like to fight (competition, on the street, in a war zone), unarmed and with weapons, so he's not teaching a methodology that he knows doesn't translate.

Cool story, bro.

Let's be honest. The people who bring lineage into question are those from another lineage who often want to try and prove something regarding their own.

What did Leung Sheung or Wong Shun Leung have to prove about their lineage?

As the senior-most student of Yip Man in Hong Kong, Leung Sheung didn't have to prove anything to anyone about his lineage. And Wong Shun Leung obviously let his hands do the talking.

[LFJ]

To someone like Graham, LTWT can't come from Yip Man because if it does, then it invalidates (in his mind) all the things he's been posting for years on forums like this one.

He said if LT is all we had he wouldn't be doing Wing Chun.

Luckily Yip Man having ever taught WT concepts isn't an issue.

[BPWT..]

Have you never been convinced that something you believe is logical and then learned better? That's my point. Until you learn better, you'll continue on believing there's nothing illogical about it.

I honestly don't know. I've known things were logical and they proved to be so. I've also known things were illogical and later found a logical way. I can't think of something that I thought was logical - really believed it to be logical - and then realised that it wasn't. Maybe there has been, but I can't think of one. Honest answer.

The explanation sounds like how it looks. Just letting your flailing noodle arms go.

I'm sorry that all you can see here is "flailing" and "noodle arms." I think you're smart enough, and experienced enough, to actually see what is here - but I think you're reluctant to admit that.

Cool story, bro.

I don't get you guys, sometimes. If something doesn't fit with your way of thinking, you insinuate something is bullish!t/lies. You think Chris is lying when he says he boxed and has wrestling experience? You think he is lying when he says he's needed to protect himself outside of the ring? You think he is lying about having been in the Marines for 9 years?

What did Leung Sheung or Wong Shun Leung have to prove about their lineage? As the senior-most student of Yip Man in Hong Kong, Leung Sheung didn't have to prove anything to anyone about his lineage. And Wong Shun Leung obviously let his hands do the talking.

Leung Sheung never questioned that Leung Ting had learned from Yip Man. Wong Shun Leung never questioned it either. YM said it was so - they believed him (actually, Leung Sheung was said to be unhappy about it).

The lineage argument we're talking about is Graham's claim that Leung Ting's connection to Yip Man is false. Graham is talking out of his arse. I never said WSL needed to prove his lineage (we all know it), and the same applies to LS. I don't think anyone questioned this - so I'm not sure where you get this from.

[BPWT..]

He said if LT is all we had he wouldn't be doing Wing Chun.

He also said:

"To make things even worse we have people who claim to be personal closed door students of Yip Man that are really teaching a load of old tosh."

"Dude LT learnt hardly anything from Yip Man."

"I just wish he [BPWT] would stop posting lines and lines of rubbish about the whole YM connection when it is completely false information!"

Graham spouts BS every time he comes here to post. Never able to back up his claims, yet still keeps posting his lies.

[LFJ]

I think you're smart enough, and experienced enough, to actually see what is here - but I think you're reluctant to admit that.

Whatever puts you at ease with it.

I don't get you guys, sometimes. If something doesn't fit with your way of thinking, you insinuate something is bullish!t/lies. You think Chris is lying when he says he boxed and has wrestling experience? You think he is lying when he says he's needed to protect himself outside of the ring? You think he is lying about having been in the Marines for 9 years?

It's just that everyone says that. All it amounts to is a cool story... unless they caught it on film, which they rarely do.

I never said WSL needed to prove his lineage (we all know it), and the same applies to LS. I don't think anyone questioned this - so I'm not sure where you get this from.

You said the people who bring lineage into question are those from another lineage who often want to try and prove something regarding their own. So WSL and LS's (and other seniors') comments at the press conference were to prove something about their own lineage?

[BPWT..]

It's just that everyone says that. All it amounts to is a cool story... unless they caught it on film, which they rarely do.

Everyone? I know plenty of teachers who haven't boxed or wrestled, haven't been in street fights and have not served in the military. It doesn't matter to me if they haven't. But to imply Chris a liar, well... that's pretty low.

You said the people who bring lineage into question are those from another lineage who often want to try and prove something regarding their own. So WSL and LS's (and other seniors') comments at the press conference were to prove something about their own lineage?

The seniors at that conference were not questioning that LT learned from YM - they were not questioning his lineage. They were saying that he was not the head of the YM family. LT agreed with them, as he'd never said he was.

They knew this, as he'd spoken about it after he read the inaccurate magazine article. He told them it was inaccurate. He found it absurd and, frankly, funny that someone would write that he was the head honcho over people who were clearly more senior to him. LT has always acknowledged that many people were senior to him. He didn't question their lineage either.

But they held the conference anyway. As was their right. These guys liked to hold meetings and conferences.

When William Cheung claimed to have been the only person to have learned the real Wing Chun from Yip Man, and it was said that he claimed to be the "number one student of Yip Man", another conference was held so that the YM WCK family could clarify things - presumably for the general public.

Wong Sheung Leung was the Chairman at that VTAA meeting. And the Vice Chairman was... Leung Ting. (yeah... the same Leung Ting that Graham says is all false information regarding a connection to Yip Man...). Lok Yiu was the President, Ho Kam Ming was a Vice President.

[LFJ]

But to imply Chris a liar, well... that's pretty low.

Yeah, well, get bent. I never implied anyone is a liar, especially not someone I don't know or give two sh!ts about. All I'm implying is that cool stories don't impress me. Anyone can have a cool story and still do less than practical things with their training partners.

The seniors at that conference were not questioning that LT learned from YM - they were not questioning his lineage.

You need to have a look at the record. That's exactly what they were doing.

[BPWT..]

You need to have a look at the record. That's exactly what they were doing.

Not really. Was Leung Ting the head of the school? That was the central question at the meeting - which was not even really a question. LT never claimed to be.

Was Leung Ting a student all of YM's? They all knew he was - with the exception of Yip Chun (apparently), who tried to claim that because he never saw any teaching, it didn't happen. Again, idiocy... YM said himself that he was teaching LT, and some photos of the training were taken too (obviously Yip Chun was not present at the training - why would he be?).

To say that the seniors (plural) were questioning the teacher/student relationship, is false. Yip Chun alone posed the question, and I don't think many today would really place much significance on his assertions. Journalists present at the meeting, might have, however. A good story is always a good story.

Now, there could indeed be debate over whether LT was a "disciple". Personally, I don't think LT ever was. Having private lessons is one thing, being a disciple is another. I haven't ever heard LT make the claim he was one of YM's disciples.

I never implied anyone is a liar, especially not someone I don't know or give two sh!ts about.

Okay, you are not saying he is a liar. Though rather than say Chris has some interesting experience, history, etc... you say 'cool stories.' Story kinda implies that you think it is fictional. But okay, if that's not what you meant then I take it back.

[LFJ]

A couple links:

http://kwansao.wordpress.com/2012/05...ing-denounced/

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...%20story%20bro