What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90
To turn your back into your opponent while his arm is free is always a bad idea, and should be avoided as much as possible. In the following clip, when he applies a "shoulder throw", his opponent's left arm are free.
- His free arm can wrap your waist, spin with you, and drag you all the way down to the ground.
- His free arm can hook punch on your head.
- He can even use his free hand to pull your head back.
I had pointed this out in a Judo discussion and make many Judo guys unhappy about it. They all believe that if you spin fast, your opponent won't have time to do anything to you. The problem is what if your opponent is also fast.
However, when there is a problem, there is always a solution for it. If you use "under hook" to lift your opponent's shoulder when you turn your back into him, since his free arm will be lifted by your "under hook", he can't use his arm to wrap your waist. You will be quite safe even you turn you back into your opponent.
http://johnswang.com
More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
Agree! All principle can be violated as long as you know how to "violate" it. Here is a good example for it. When he turns his back into his opponent, his opponent's left arm is disabled. His opponent's right hand is too far away from him to do anything.
Similar discussion had been done in the Taiji thread. The Taiji principle says that you should always keep your head straight. With that in mind, all body contact throws will violate that Taiji principle.
The question is which one is more important? To follow the:
- WC principle? or
- throwing art principle?
When both principles has conflict, which one should you follow?
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-15-2014 at 11:40 AM.
http://johnswang.com
More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1273656]and here we get to the crux of the matter:
So, unless it is in a WC form, then it isn't WC?
So, WC is a technique based system.[/QUOTE-------------------
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Not correct for me. But wing chun has become so hopelessly diverse folks are speaking quite different languages.
I can't comment for anyone else but can comment from my perspective (based on a major Ip man line).
The forms are not the total collection of techniques. They are principles of motion important for connecting the skeletal system
in different ways for balancing, power and efficiencies including not wasting power. Chi sao is the lab where you develop more timing and
applications against other folks. Forms are empty without chi sao and chi sao is blind without understanding the forms. A bong sao when doing the forms
will be adjusted to handle the situation. Adjustment is one of several principles but through experience one learns how much and when to adjust.
Wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. But if you choose wing chun and get a first class teacher you can do a good job inthe TCMA tradition-
you can defend, attack, throw, break and deal with cavities.
Agreed, although for the last one, I'll go to the dentist. In fact I just did, ...last week.
Actually, I better run that by my wife. She's a dental hygienist. ..."Honey, forget all that stuff you learned in school. With WC, we fill cavities with fists!!!"
No, on the other hand, that could be taken the wrong way. Really wrong. Good thing Bawang isn't around lately.
Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 07-15-2014 at 01:02 PM.
exposing my back...
If we don't talk about "throwing" and just talk about "locking", some "locking" do require that you expose you back toward your opponent. Do you want to stay away from those moves just because it doesn't fit to your style principle?
In the following clip,
- you have controlled your opponent's right arm.
- You move yourself toward his right side door.
- His left hand can't reach you.
There is no danger to expose your back to your opponent at that moment.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-15-2014 at 05:42 PM.
http://johnswang.com
More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
Yes that judo throw execution isn't very good in that clip - he does nothing to his opponent's structure thru most of the throw entry. No kuzushi.
That throw doesn't have much to do with spinning fast at all. It has to do with locking the arm to yours and driving as you turn. Now there is an effective kuzushi entry where you circle away from the throw with a grip then turn into it quickly. This may be what they were referring to spinning fast but in actuality it's not that but the hard setup.I had pointed this out in a Judo discussion and make many Judo guys unhappy about it. They all believe that if you spin fast, your opponent won't have time to do anything to you. The problem is what if your opponent is also fast.
Yes better fundamentals shut down counters. I had done this throw for a couple years before I was introduced to some of the Sambo drilling they do with it, which kind of ingrains in locking the arm and driving quickly, much different than that clip.However, when there is a problem, there is always a solution for it. If you use "under hook" to lift your opponent's shoulder when you turn your back into him, since his free arm will be lifted by your "under hook", he can't use his arm to wrap your waist. You will be quite safe even you turn you back into your opponent.
actually in that discussion it was pointed out that said throw was one of the higher percentage throws you see in competition, and it was also pointed out that you need to break their balance before turning, they werent unhappy with you they simply thought you were wrong and posted clips of the throw being used to prove it
Graham, you were proved wrong when it was shown, contrary to your assertions, that there are videos of PB using trips and sweeps to destabilize and floor people. I think my asking about how much time you have spent training directly with PB is perfectly valid given your errors. It is perhaps even more valid given your previous comments that people did not get the 'correct' understanding of WSL because they only spent a few hours being directly taught by him. Equally I feel this standard should be applied to you with respects to what you understand of PB's system.
I would also add that people have given you plenty of opportunity to talk about your understanding but you often refuse to comment. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to believe that you do not have said knowledge and understanding. As for my understanding I don't make any claims but rather actually state my understanding through examples by sharing it. That is totally different from trolling for information, as you say, besides, forums like this exist to put ideas forward and to read others to get a better understanding. I am sorry that you fail to realise this.
Last edited by Paddington; 07-16-2014 at 05:08 AM.
What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90
Agreed. And while such techniques may be functional, it is more functional for a WC man to stay within the parameters of WC. If you stay within the system, the structures, steps, movements and energies all work together. A system is defined as much by what it excludes as by what it includes. LFJ and... (thought I may be loathe to admit it) Graham had a good point regarding this.