Well....Well...Well... So, I made into this epic thread! Gather around the campfire, for I have a tale to tell. I am, the nice "Shaolin Do" teacher in San Francisco as mentioned above. I have been teaching professionally in SF for 5 years now. This should get interesting, because I am not sure who hates me more, the CSC's? Or, the usual Shaolin Do haters? But, lets get a few facts straight here people. First, I am a FORMER teacher of the CSC's, I left and was thrown into legal threats. Second, I am not from Shaolin Do, I originally came from the Denver CSC (although, they are both horrible in my view), but may as well straighten that out now since there are some differences. And third, hskwarrior has every right to be questioning Jake and SD on the form; and on top of it, hes a great guy! For the record to the SD people, I have hardly met anyone from Shaolin Do on the east coast/south; but, I will say that Master Gary Mullins and Master John Keller are ABSOLUTE inspirations, and great martial artists that I would never want to cross. I have yet to meet a sifu or master from any style that can hold themselves to Gary Mullins standard, especially in consideration of age. The man is a beast in his training, and a true professional. My hat is tipped. I wish I lived closer so I could train with him more...Gotta give credit, where credit is due.Originally Posted by kwaichang
I will give you some background, and then my insiders opinion on all of this, and also hopefully clear up this ridiculous thread. For those that just want to see if I actually opened up a spar session, you have to read the rest to get to the good stuff. On top of it, I actually have gone out and tested some these other more 'traditional' arts, and found some interesting things both good and bad...On the big thread topics, YES I know, and have trained with Jake; I was there through the whole decision on the lawsuit; I trained directly under the Soards, and I even sat in the courtroom for David's hearing.
Now, for you quiet lurkers on the west coast (Denver to California) (and yes, I know you quietly watch this thread), if you have been within the CSC's over the last 10 years; you know me. I have likely visited your school, trained, sparred or travelled with you at some point before you stopped being my friend for leaving. For those that do not know me, I found the CSC in Denver while attending college, began training, eventually started assisting, and finally teaching when I moved to SF.
I had zero money when I came to SF. So, I started in Sutro Heights park where I had a few students, and then immediately started renting a multi-purpose wellness center a few nights on the border of Chinatown where I managed to get more students. That space was ran by another Sifu from Tat Wong's school, and eventually they went out of business. I was able to secure a full-time commercial space across the street with the Kwan Family, in conjunction with the local Kwang Kung Temple directly above us. And NO, it was not money based. They told me NO for 4 months straight, until I finally had a translator. We sat down for dumplings, talked at length with the entire family, and were finally accepted to lease. This will likely mean nothing to most of you, but for hskwarrior and anyone from Chinatown SF; you KNOW that feeling when you are accepted into this community, it was a big deal for me. Now, dont get all huffy, call me a McDojo and think I am raking in millions on the good name of kung fu... I make ZERO money, I dont teach kids, and do not participate in tournaments. Any money goes directly back into the school, and I run it as a co-op. Anyways, this is about the time when it all changed for me. Enter...The lawsuit.
I was unhappy with the training from the CSC's, at higher-levels...It just got bad for me. Nothing but more form's/choreography, story time and half-truth's. I would spend hundreds to travel and train, only to be entirely under-whelmed. On top of it, the business model was bad, the overall quality and martial ability had declined, and there was a culty feel. I decided to leave... Along with a few others and all of us were promptly served with a cease/desist letter and threat of an impending law-suit which just dragged out over a year, costing money, time and lost old-friends.
During this time, I felt so burned; I was on a mission to learn the "real stuff". I tried (and still do) to train with as many high-level (sifu level+) in any art possible. My interest was in internal, so I went to NYC and spent a few days with William CC Chen, Gordon Feng (Zheng Man Qing), (Fu Zhong Wen Disciple), met with Marilyn Cooper, Ben Lo disciples (Zheng Man Qing), Hung Gar Sifu's, and a TON of park-meet ups for sparring and push hands (bay area offers a lot of push hands meet-ups), and I train Russian Systema on the Alameda Naval Base when I can. My friend, a teacher who was also sued from the CSC's; took to Waysun Liao, Richard Clear, and a few others. Personally, I stuck with a senior Ben Lo teacher (name not important) for Taiji, and mostly focused on Xing Yi for the last 2-3 years. Anyway, Here is what I found:
Shaolin Do's internal is totally amatuer and wrong in my opinion, completely off on almost every level. I am not just talking choreography, but the intent, energy, reason for the movements (not applications), lack of translation and understanding of terms, posture and missed understanding of principles and practice... Ugh. It was starting from ground zero, and I ate bitter the first time I pushed with William Chen's students. There is another former Shaolin Do teacher here in the bay area that is a closed door student with Jerry Alan Johnson for Bagua, and found the same analysis. The Yang 37 form SD has, is obviously a stripped down version taken from Zheng Man Qing, without a doubt. Whether Master Sin actually learned it somewhere... I will never know, but it certainly was not in Indonesia considering the timing of Zheng Man Qing and his students; plus, there are major errors all over their version of the form in consideration to the original intent.
Shaolin Do's external material, not bad! I would say the conditioning level and material itself held stronger than most when confronted in sparring against other senior level people. Even some of those hard-core traditionalists seemed impressed... After a brief demo, or trade of hands; I would tell my experience and they would say "NO! You do kung fu! Jake Mace doesn't"! But Alas, we came from the same beginning! BUT, as I always say, it really does come down to the student. I stand by the lower material (I even said it hskwarrior!), the beginning years (white-2nd black) has GOOD material, if you train it right. Past that is when it gets sketchy for me...
Master Sin learned Chinese Martial Arts while in Indonesia, it may be colored with other influences; but we all know there were Chinese Masters present at his school. The material everyone blames him for 'creating', is actual longer material he had cut-down from longer forms to make the lower belts more graspable to beginners, and from a teachers perspective; thats fine. He cut out the repetitions and made it more efficient. Zheng Man Qing did the exact same thing with the original Yang Family Form. If he actually created that stuff from thin-air, then he is a genius. Past 2nd black, when there are random system forms thrown in for testing...That is where I lose all interest, and have no clue where they came from.
Now, for the Choy Li Fut/5 Animal form. That **** belongs to the Choy Li Fut system, Lau Bun lineage, and should really only be taught by them and Doc Fai Wong. The version SD has is a PUBLIC version, there are postures and intentions removed, and they can tell because it is THEIR form/system. This is a common in tactic in CMA? Why is everyone surprised? Just like any Ben Lo student would say the same thing about SD's version of the 37 Yang Form! I have talked to hsk nd Sifu Kuttel (Doc Fai Wong) about this until I just wanted to shoot myself. SD and Jake, you have a public version of ONE Choy Li Fut form... It does not mean you know the entire system, or own that form; just like the 37 Yang, and a host of others. When I first met my current Taiji/Xing Yi teacher, he said, well... You have A version, but its not THE version for Zheng Taiji and Hebei Xing Yi; before giving a complete explanation of why it matters and then making me feel like a total beginner again. Same with Tiger/Crane...That is an obscure village version; nothing close to the Hung Gar Tiger/Crane from Wong Fei Hung as known today, and again... It is only ONE form, claiming you know Hung Gar would be absurd.
CONTINUED......>
Reply With Quote
