Monkey and Mantis relationship

[xiao yao]

Monkey is often referenced in Mantis, and I have never seen any Monkey styles in Shandong, but just saw this clip of a Fujian Monkey style and it struck me in it's similarity to Mantis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jIHII-d50o

What are your thoughts?

[PalmStriker]

Great find on that link,
xiao yao. the form seems to show a crane-style base influence also, interesting as most monkey form documented on video/film seems to be extreme "animal style" in content. I think you may be on to something.

[Tainan Mantis]

I did see crane. What about the relation of the different crane styles with monkey style?
Will, you trained white crane?

[xiao yao]

Hi Kevin, No I never trained White Crane... that's Nikki.

Yes its the first time Ive also seen a monkey style that isnt totally ridiculous

[PalmStriker]

You mean bouncing around, scratching at fleas?

[xiao yao]

"scratching at fleas"

try that in a fight, and nobody would wanna touch you, maybe its a good defense strategy

[Tainan Mantis]

There can be no doubt that the appearance of a monkey played a roll in early martial arts.
As early as the mid 16th century a general remarked that the Shaolin monks performance of empty hand kung fu looked monkey like.
I suspect that the meaning of the author was ape like, and not monkey like.

There are still some people have some of that loose relaxed ape energy.

[Tainan Mantis]

So, why is that loose relaxed look so rare?
Personally I think it is just lack of practice. One form ten times a day or even 100 times is not it. Instead, it should be one small group of applications trained over and over.

Explanations of early period martial arts show this to be the case.
1. techniques are few in number
2. repetition as key

As to the first point,
Qi Jiguang attributes only one technique to Zhao Kuangyin, 'high pat on horse.' Compare that to the uncountable number of forms with Zhao's name sake today.
Qi Jiguang's teacher, at least one of them, Tang Shunzhi, explains three variations of high pat on horse to apply in combat. But he spends most of his time explaining how to train your kicks so that your legs turn into weapons. So, three variations of one technique and train your leg, somewhat like a Thai boxer does today.

Second point
Early Qing Book of Arms goes to the trouble of explaining a spear technique 'green dragon extents claw' (qing long xian zhua 青龍獻抓) and how to count out repetitions. Green dragon extents claw is practiced 50,000 times, including how many repetitions per day and when the student should finish with the number of 50,000, around three months.

So, in conclusion, I think that looking loose and relaxed is part of repetition. Though the word monkey is often used, I suspect that it is really an ape.

This belief is based on several things not the least of which is observing gibbons and monkeys (just enter your Daoist frame of mind for that).

Mantis talks of hou bu (猴步) or the 'monkey step.' The monkey is applied to the feet, not the body or arms.
Second, mantis talks of tong bei or 'through the back' (通背). This reference is specifically to Han Tong, the man who is nicknamed Gibbon Arm Tong (通臂猿).

[mooyingmantis]

Will,

I have trained in a style of houquan since the 70s and tanglangquan since the 80s. Some hand combinations are very similar. Though both arts share commonalities with many other Northern style. So it is not unusual the mantis and monkey would have similar ideas.

The arts' flavor and power generation are quite different though.

Some footwork is similar in both arts, but I think that mantis footwork came more from an ape rather than a monkey type style.

Just some ideas in passing.

[xiao yao]

Great background info!

Zhou Shifu told me how the Bai Yuan (white ape) set of forms were originally a style in their own right. He learnt this style when he was young, but after training Tanglang didnt feel inspired to keep it up... except Tou Tao which he teaches to kids as a basic form. He once showed me what he remembers of Xian Tao, Chu Dong and Kui Yuan and they were quite different to the forms practiced by Qixing people today.

I would imagine some of the long arm techniques in Tanglang could have an "ape" origin, throwing your arms out like that reminds me of a large ape.

[Tainan Mantis]

I would imagine some of the long arm techniques in Tanglang could have an "ape" origin, throwing your arms out like that reminds me of a large ape.

Yes, it is called Tong Bei of Han Tong.
Tong Bei is specifically the ape of Tang Lang.

And, Sun Heng has the Monkey style:
"Sun Heng's monkey fist is magnificent (孫恆的猴拳且盛)"

The body of Mantis is:
Plum flower grand ultimate hands. Winter rooster steps with monkey shi
Mei hua taiji shou. Hanji bu hou shi
梅花太極手。寒雞步猴勢。