Effects of chaos on combat

[Ray Pina]

APOW, KC, I respect both of your opinions. I do respect people's minds here that they can "get it". Which is why I will share my idea, or my view of my teacher's idea so far, and not the technology. A good martial artists, someone who looks into an idea and visualizes. may get soemthing out of it. Maybe not. But certainly no one is learning kung fu here, that's even worse than a video or book. As for sharing, its not sharing a secret if kept inside the school. So, information is shared, just with members. Certainly every school has material it does not go over when guest are visiting. If they don't, they most not consider what they have valuable.

This discretion is out of my not wanting to transmit a weak portrayal of a great system as well, for I am still wrestling with the concepts.

As for the stick (and also notice the middle grip on the pole in the same issue (middle of magazine): If I was fighting with a baseball bat, should I choke up to leave room for grappling, hitting with the but end? Or should I hold it as low and long as possible for me to get an advanatge and take the other guy's head off?

Now, the stick's are thinner, but just as dangerous. The target it not the head but the hand. If its turning into a grappling match something is wrong. Two men armed with sticks, we are talking broking or shattered wrists. From there, sure, then go and do what you like. Hold it in the middle and slap him back and forth with both ends while he's suffering.

But, to loose that lenght advantage when trying to get the other's hand before he get's you (of coarse there's technique involved) I view as a disadvantage. It is not a grappling match. WOuld you do the same with a short sword. Loose the blade so you can hit with the but? The but? How can you get so close? The other must be terrible then.

Well, sorry. Again it seems I come off as the oager. I am just answering and speaking my mind honestly. Disagreements will happen, especially when discussing soemthing we all hold dear and personal as MA. I just think techniques are hard enough to explain to someone new to it in person. And then what if they do get it? I like that most haven't seen the principles I am now learning. Selfish? Maybe. But we are studying for battle.

[Mutant]

EF, I understand what youre saying and respect that. I think many of us value dearly our hard earned kung fu and would hate to think of some ******* using ideas for bad reasons or getting an easy break on learning.

But I really don't think someone could pick up 'techniques' from an internet post. Just like I doubt they could get it from a video or book. Heck, its even hard to learn this stuff from someone in person. It takes a lot more than a few vague paragraphs to construct a 'blueprint', which contain many layers of graphic and technical information, but is still static. Besides, how often does a contractor actually interpret the blueprint correctly and build an excact replica of the original concept? Even with a blueprint, it takes months, even years of communication and collaboration with a knowlegable team.

I think the more valuable & possibly useful or dangerous information actually is the 'IDEAS' and principles we discuss, which by your own admission you don't have an issue with sharing. I think these concepts are the real interesting content.

regards

[apoweyn]

evolutionfist,

you don't come off as an ogre. far from it. i can respect the approach you're taking. it's not mine. that's all. i do regard what i have to offer as valuable. but i believe that those who get it are the ones who are 'supposed' to get it. if i do a good enough job of sharing it and they do a good enough job of processing it, then learning occurs.

in any event, as i say, your approach is perfectly valid and i have no intention of trying to convince you otherwise. in some respects, i'm envious of your convictions.

as for the eskrima thing, i have to disagree. a largo mano ('long hand') practitioner would agree with you. no punyo, keep your range advantage. but just as it is the job of a grappler to close with a taekwondoka to eliminate their range advantage, it is the job of a medio-range eskrimador to close with a largo mano eskrimador to shut down said advantage.

think about it like this: two eskrimadors of similar height and tactics. you pointed out very accurately that the target will be the hands. that means that both guys are aiming to smash one another's knuckles, wrists, etc. certainly, it's possible at this range for one to succeed and the other to fail, due to variations in timing, angle, etc. but a better tactic, to my mind, is for one to close and use different maneuvers. take the largo mano man out of his element and control him. part of that is the use of the butt of the stick.

would i do the same with a short sword? perhaps, yeah. certainly with a knife. if he has a stick and i have a knife, i'm going to try and close, control, and attack. not stay outside and take advantage of the full range of my weapon. in my experience, once you get past the optimal range of a long range weapon, the short range weapon has an easier time. certainly that's no easy feat. but my personal choice is to close rather than stay outside.

i actually have video of a match i fought out in san francisco. me chasing a backpedaling largo mano stylist around the ring. long day, that.

now, all this said, i have seen an ad in the martial arts rags for a kenpo tape, i think. in the ad, the guy is holding two sticks, literally, in the middle. i'll grant you that this makes NO sense to me. the punyo is generally no bigger than your fist.


stuart b.

[Ray Pina]

MW, I agree with you. That's also another reason for not waisting anyone's time with more deteail

Apow, good man. I respect your apraoch as well, but lienyou said, we are viewing a similiar problem but from different angles. No arguements here. I wish you the best in solving all combat equations thrown at you by foes. I'm working to do the same.

Thank you. Though this thread could have seemingly turned confrontational, I have actually enjoyed it. Thank you gentleman. I for one have learned soemthing.

Ray

[apoweyn]

evolutionfist,

"we are viewing a similar problem from different angles."

amen, my friend.

regards,


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Good thread. Nothing to add except perhaps this:

Your job as a fighter is to shape the chaos as much as you can into what you want it to be The more your skill matches your intent, the more that will happen, I think...

[jon]

Hi everyone
Thanks a lot for everyones responces, ill put together a proper reply soon but im pretty beat at the moment.
Still i just wanted to clarify something which EvolutionFist has said.
"let's say a Hung Gar guy with a great lineage starts blabbing inside door info to guys who are say, not so liget, then things get watered down, taken wrongly. "
* This is going to sound egotistical but...
Im a Hung Ga guy and my linage i have published here before and im quite proud of it. Im also a closed door student, though not a Bai See or linage holder by any stretch i do recieve private teachings. I have also once or twise admitted this online though i dont usualy.
That said...
I hope you were not taking a side shot at me when you said that.

Just incase...
My position regarding such things is i actualy do have my teachers permisson to speak and i dont every give out any information which i would consider 'closed door'. These skills relate purely to combat and are a very physical thing hence discussing them would not do any good. What i certainly do like to do is discuss martial arts in terms of application in text but without needing to go into detailed technique or target discription. This also relates to my very topic, not being to fixed on set techniques or patterns.
I think that to post about such things as this topic is fine, as others have pointed out its only thinking its not 'how to do'.
I can certainly respect you not wanting to go into the 'blueprints' of your teachers techniques and i would not want to do the same with my system.
I have done it once or twise in the past but it has always been in the spirit of sharing and the movements i have picked have been only intermediate movements and nothing considered 'closed'.

Im just posting this becouse your post got me a little edgy and as stated i hope it wasnt directed at me
All the best
Jon

[Ray Pina]

Jon, that was not a shot at you at all, and I didn't know your position -- good for you!

ANyway, I just chose HUng Gar because this portion of the site seems to attract more souther fist players.

I agree with you, the details are tough to present here in an orderly and timely fashion. I'm at work, I get in, bang out a response, read a bit, and then go. To explain in detail would be pointless. I like to stick to the idea, theory. Poeple can play with it and incorporate it into their technique no matter the style.

As for closed door info. I believe it is a privelege, and should thus stay there, behind closed doors. It's a matter of trust and discipline. Many times people show, not so much to teach, but reveal what they now. Then the person, in this case here a stranger, walks away with something that could be distorted, and claim they now know some of this or that. Or worse, actually get it, and be succesfully incorporate it. Technology is the key. Anyone training hard can equal anyone else, its a matter of will and detrmination. Its technology that makes a difference. China has more man power then us, the US, but why do they want inside Los Allomos? OUr technology.

That's why, though unpopular, I truly believe some styles are better then others: their technology is better.

[Ray Pina]

Read my other post. I said I answerd your post with my opinion because I do respect you. Sometimes we aproach things differently, but I am not one to insist it has to be my way ... one never learns that way.

No wierd intent here on my behalf at all.

Wishing you well
Ray

pss Must be nice to get that disciple treatment.

[Gargoyle again]

Someone mentioned it, and I'll second it...

Read James Gleick's "Chaos". It is world-view changing, it's that good. It's the discovery that the world really does follow yin/yang principles...

[jon]

Hi EvolutionFist
Thank you for clearing that up, it was a bit presumptious of me to assume you where talking about me. In retrospect i remember than you have Hung training yourself and hence deciding on that system for your comment is not such a stretch.
I also respect your views which is why i wanted to make sure you where not addressing me with that comment.
I will do a proper reply for others as soon as ive got some energy
"pss Must be nice to get that disciple treatment."
*As i say im nothing to special i just get private lessons and there i learn things in much greater detail than in class.
That said... Most of the time it just revolves around me being hit in places i didnt know existed so i can 'feel' what my sifu is talking about. Im pretty sure he just made me that to be his personal target practice. That and i now get the pleasure of being totaly scutinised over the most minor details known to man. I often when trying to show him my form dont get past the first few movements without some kind of correction.
Still i dont knock it... Well maybe just a little
All the best
Jon

[JasBourne]

I'm enjoying this discussion, good stuff here.

Chaos, yeah those UCSC guys are on to something, aren't they? makes you rething the whole shebang.

One of my screensavers has an excellent Mandelbrot set and two of the Julias. Very relaxing, almost hypnotic.