Luohan Quan

[Djuan]

any info on this form?
says LUOHAN PU SHEN CHUI? .....Some say its a form of Tong bei quan? either way, this is a nice flow and rooted performance. love it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82mX8T0sLs


any info is nice.

Amituofo

[Xian]

The Info I directly wrote into the discription

This is the most detailed version I have seen so far.Some also call this set Lao Tong Bi Quan as many of the postures overlap with Da Tong Bi Quan. In my opinion this set relates to Luohan Quan not just by name. Of course its not like the 18 Luohan Forms or like the Luohan Shiba Shou or the Luohan Damo Shibi Shou but I think the influence of Hong Quan and Pao Quan is not the same as in other sets. And it reminds me in its body structure more of Luohan Quan. Just my thoughts on it. If anyone like to share any on it, would love it.

Best regards

[Djuan]

The Info I directly wrote into the discription




Best regards

Amituofo

I'm sharing your sentiment then. Would like more info on this particular form exactly. .....understanding everyone expresses every form their own way, naturally. This style I have seen before and it still intrigues me, and I wonder if this form of expressing certain Shaolin fists is particular to one master, time period, or one school within Shaolin, if so, who? Wouldn't we all like the answers here ,..... with certain details, its almost like we have to make the research travels to the location lol, which sounds fine with me! I'll meet you there, just bring me some extra long socks and training shoes!

Amituofo

[Djuan]

Amituofo,

.. Also, I know this is a big thread, Im new here to the forum and as a student , Im sure my questions have been asked and answered by like students before.
I was going to ask this (why somany roads and names, what Shi De Yang teaches?) directly to Gene Ching, Sal Canzonieri (if around), Xian, Shemmati, then I combed through this post and found my answers.
So I'll hold off on my OTHER questions and keep searching threads lol

found this which looks similar to what Shi De Yang teaches in his dvd http://www.chinashaolinkungfu.com/18_actions.html , yet its not exactly the same lol, so with the names and different segments it gets confusing, I will always take De Yang as a credible source however, so my initial goal was to make sense of the 18 hands he speaks of in his dvd, in terms of historical presence and structural integrity.

Gene I also ordered the old magazine with this years Spring issue, has the articles about it (Luohan hands), has abbot Shi Yong Xin on the cover, lol.... ye seeks and ye finds.
anyhow, I cant say how thankful I am that you all share your study here with us and have this community here.
Please keep it up!

Amituofo

[Djuan]

Luohan 18 Shou, road 1:

as previously mentioned, Deyang's Luohan 18 Shou is the 1st road (at p.2 of the 2nd vol of the Encyclopedia). however, this was not justified, and besides, Deyang's and the Encyclopedia form were thought to have the postures in much different orders with respect to each other. here i show that not only they are the same, but that their postural orders are very closely the same:

Deyang begins the form with the crossed palms at standing stance, then switches the palms (figs 2-3 of the Encyclopedia), then before continuing with stand and join palms near the shoulder (fig 4), Deyang, as a repetition, does the down-cut palm at side transitory step (T stance) and uppercut palm at bow step (figs 7-8, Deyang does the latter in bow step, but the Encyclopedia on horse), afterwards, he continues with join palms near the shoulder, down-cut palm at side transitory step, uppercutting palm at bow step, then, again, down-cutting palm at side transitory step and the uppercutting palm at bow step (figs 4-8), then he does two elbow strikes at bow step to right and left (figs 9-10), down-cutting palm in side transitory step (fig 11). instead of the turn and transition in figs 12, Deyang goes to the join arms at bow step (fig 13) directly. then he turns back, joins fists while pushing the elbow in bow step (fig 14), turns body and spreads the palms on-horse stance (fig 15, Encyclopedia doesn't spread the palms, but instead spreads the elbows), left bow or 4-6 step with palms in guard in front (fig 16). here Deyang does a strange postures, he thrusts right fist with the other fist near shoulder, which the Encyclopedia doesn't have. before ending with crossed palms and standing up (figs 17-18), Deyang thrusts elbow in bow step, while the Encyclopedia does the same after the crossed palms (fig 19).

* throughout the form, except in fig 15, all the directions and left/right of Deyang's and Encyclopedia's form are the same, but the stepping methods are usually different. this difference in steppings in forms is usual among SongShan Shaolin lineages, but the Encyclopedia is unusually full of such different steppings. stepping means how the feet move to form a specific step/stance. it's usual in the Encyclopedia forms to form the same steps/stances with somehow different transitory moves of the feet. this, however, is not something bad with the Encyclopedia, but rather teaches the same form wit different transitions. if we consider that the same posture when done with different transitional movements can have totally different applications, then such differences in the Encyclopedia will seem as new materials we can learn from.


Luohan 18 Shou, road 8:

now, as another famous Luohan 18 Shou form, Dejian and others' Luohan 18 Shou (videos: 1 (at 26:38, with Wugulun lineage shenfa), 2 (at 26:13, with Wugulun lineage shenfa), 3 (with standard shenfa)) is the 8th road (at p.32 of the 2nd vol of the Encyclopedia).

this time, besides the above-mentioned differences, there are differences such as left/right exchange, and even skipping some movements or performing them in a hidden way, etc, between the resources. so we must consider all the resources (Encyclopedia and the videos) together to identify what they do:
the videos have the crossed palms followed by a few pushings of palms at the beginning, which the Encyclopedia doesn't show except for the 1st, 2nd, and 6th roads. after this, they continue with push both palms in bow step (fig 2), take two lift-leg steps spreading the arms (figs 3-4), then a short step and short-range push palm (fig 5), squat and pound the palm with fist (fig 6), turn to bow step and spread arms (fig 7), turn again and after taking a step (fig 8) twist the arms (fig 9) and squat while pushing palm downward (fig 10). instead of the steps and transitions in figs 7-9, videos no 2 and 3 do a simple turn to fig 10. after this, they turn (fig 11), squat and collect the hands in front of chest (fig 12), bow step and push one hand forward the other backward (fig 13), the videos here do 2 punches that the Encyclopedia doesn't have, then there's back palm strike in bow step (fig 14) followed by crouching down (fig 15, videos no 1 and 2, because of their shenfa style don't do a full crouch downard, but just lower their body slightly), there's turn and spread hands on horse stance, which the Encyclopedia doesn't show, then it's squat and collecting the hands (fig 16), spred arms standing on one leg (fig 17), followed by blocking left and right with palms in transitory step (xue bu) (figs 18-19), and the end. at the ending, the videos do luohan sleeps/contemplates posture, which is not a luohan 18 shou posture; they've got it from Luohan quan.

_______
* NOW consider this technical description of these Luohan 18 Shou forms:

these show how much the technical contents and shenfa of these 1st and 8th roads are close together. i think we see the same among the rest of the 8 roads that are in the Encyclopedia, which clearly indicates they are of the same very system! each of these 8 roads has 18 postures, which makes it most likely that they are of the same 18-road 324 posture Luohan 18 Shou (18 roads, each road 18 postures) mentioned in the Encyclopedia.

ok ....cpl question for you still SHemmati , is De Yangs what you call '1st road', holding the structural integrity of the Luohan hands from the Sui dynasty?
and whats the relation with this form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAdRmBS4C-A ?

" Shaolin 18 Lohan Hands – Section 1
(from Sal's post)
1. Elder Respect Hands (Fu-zi Gong Shou)
2. Chest Center Embrace Moon (Huai Zhong Bao Yue)
3. White Tiger Wash Face (Bai Hu Xi Lian)
4. Mud Pull Onion (Ni-Li Ba Cong)
5. Forward Step Push Collapse Wall (Shang Bu Tui Dao Qiang)
6. Forward Step Robbing (pass by) Hand (Shang Bu Lue Shou)
7. Pull Palms (Ban Chang)
8. Right Crushing Elbow (You Beng Zhou)
9. Left Crushing Elbow (Zhuo Beng Zhou)
10. Forceful Hand Chop down Palm (Jie Shou Kan Chang)
11. Immortal Picks/plucks Eggplant (Xian Ren Zhai Qie)
12. Fierce Tiger Turns Body (Meng Hu Zhuan Shen)
13. Break Heart Elbow (Po Xin Zhou)
14. Turn Body Crush Elbow (Zhuan Shen Beng Zhou)
15. Turn Body Golden Dragon Scissor Force (Zhuan Shen Jin Jiao Jian Shi)
16. Small Monkey Snatches Melon (Xiao Hou Qiang Gua)
17. Immortal Returns Cave (Xian Ren Gui Dong) "



List on version I have of Shi De Yang:
1. Elder Respect Hands
2. Peel onion from mud
3. Strike one ear w/ a single fist
4. Peel onion from mud
5. Push down wall
6. Step forward, peel onion from mud
7. Step forward, press hand
8. Pound down with great power
9. Block w/ r elbow
10. Block w/ l elbow
11. Immortal picks eggplant
12. Peel off onion from mud
13. Strike forward/elbow backward
14. Turn Around, Part Wild horse mane
15. Fire Dragon walks/ Tiger steps
16. Front Level Back down
17. Strike forwards
18. Immortal Returns from Cave

[Djuan]

I posted this video today on YuoTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Pu656AmJc

It's from Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin series.
It's called Jin Tong Xiao Luohan Quan - Golden Child Small Luohan Fist.

It's completely the Er Lu Luohan - aka Refined Luohan Quan set.

It's exactly in the same sequence as the better known Refined Luohan set, but it is more "basic" than the modern looking way most do it today.

Strange, it's not like his Luohan #5 set really. Shares some moves from it, but sequence is all different and emphasis is all different.

The VCD seems to be saying that this is an old set, the new version commonly seen has more postures and has another section at the very end.

Ok Ive been researching and come to find out the style of Luohan Quan I was taught, which I have been calling "Da Luohan" for years, is really this 'Jin Tong Xiao Luohan'? , granted I practice something a bit longer, & recently I saw performed being called "Da Luohan Er Lu", so maybe I was given the correct title of the form, I'll try to find it on youtube, and if I cant find one, forbid that happens, Ill have to upload me stepping through it and see if you all can give me some help with the titles. So much gets lost in translation, when I was starting out, I didnt care what I was learning in terms of the Chinese translations line for line, and lineage, now its like returning to the roots, to really understand certain things, I have to get a full perspective of it.

Amituofo, thanks for the help again!

[Djuan]

found a video of something, closest to what I was taught as Da Luohan , you all help a lot with putting names and organization to the specifics man, so many roads/variations
.....



Amituofo

[Djuan]

Recently I've been searching for the "poems" to Da Luohan, the form above in the video of Shi De Ci, is just about exactly what I was taught, with minor variations that probably come from him or his teacher. Same form, or close, is performed by Shi De Jun, if Im not mistaken they are the same form, being called the modern abridged version of the original longer Da Luohan, which at this point, I'd almost pay to see it.

So there is some clarity here in that. I'm waiting on some of the old Tagou books also, they supposedly have the correct names to each movement. We'll see if that helps as well. Thanks to you all for already having not only a body of research to comb through, also a lot of Q&A and individual troubleshooting, which most will encounter looking for this stuff, you guys cleared a lot of it up already. (if you guys can provide any of the full poems for any of the roads that would be awesome, specifically this one by Shi De Ci, if possible, thanks!)

Now, I just want to know the Original Da Luohan. If I cant learn it, Id like to see it and study its 'poem'.
I'm glad what I was taught wasnt like, lien bu chuan or somethin lol bein called Luohan, that happens to people. smh
anyhow, it took me a while, I answered all my questions in terms of which road is which, thanks to you guys, put in some serious work.
I remember russbo.com having taolu put in his own words (you might or might not be able to do it lol), now I know why, if you learn it, and translate the moves yourself, you retain the essence of the teaching you received (what resonated in that moment) without losing it in translation over time, lets say, forbid, you dont train for a while....or you learn much more you forget, having the poems helps a lot, making one is tedious, yet kinda genius (yea that rhymes ) .

Amituofo !!

[Djuan]

between the forum, and the diligence of KFTCM, I gained a clearer understanding of the 18 Luohan standard, and why its mixed up like it is.
& going further into Da Luohan, I have identified what's what on the surface, and also found some nice applications I hadn't seen before.
I found out I only know half of the original, which is one third more than whats normally taught as the complete form.
I have seen most all variations of the wushu version, and village version, now, like most of us who are interested, I'd like to see at least, really to learn the holy, or "most sacred revered" version of the complete fist. Its being called the "divine fist", or the only Shaolin Quan? Oh Yea, I'm interested.
I'm aware that might take my seeking beyond the forum, not because the knowledge isn't present, just the fact that those who may know the whole fist or where to find it, are very busy and I respect that .. see ya when I see ya!

that said, I will stop the questions, and if I find anything new that you all haven't added, I'll add on.
I haven't got the volume for " forms " tagou book in the mail yet .. that supposedly has a complete song for Da Luohan so I cant comment on it yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luohan_quan
one thing that stood out, that I like, that I hope we can delve into deeper in the future, is that the significance of the Luohan fist to Shaolin is paramount. Its the pure Ch'an style imitating the 'enlightend ones' who put in the physical and mental work to attain in their life time, and preserves the slickest combat techiques from the
wisest empty hand fighters in the world. Also said that at one time ALL Shaolin hands were called Luohan, likely because Luohans were transmitting and teaching where ever you saw it at one point.





The citation section here at the bottom of the page has some great references for Luohan research as well,




Amituofo

[Djuan]

Xiao Luohan Quan (English Translation)

[Djuan]

Working on digging up a Da Luohan translation for Shi De Yangs dvd as well!

Amituofo

[SHemmati]

... Shi Miaoxing's luohan...

well, Miaoxing's poem is for the small luohan form. however, it's just general talking and could well apply to the big luohan form as well, even to the small hong quan, if you want.
anyway, poems are vague and verbose. many of them convey no useful points.

[SHemmati]

...Miaoxing’s luohan... innacurate...
-Greg

you cannot say Miaoxing's luohan has been the holy grail. in fact, Miaoxing, like Degen, Sufa, and many others, had an extensive prior knowledge of folk martial arts before getting into Shaolin. these people have usually brought loads of ugly, irrelevant peasant materials with themselves into the temple and have kept teaching them under the name of the Shaolin temple kung fu. so it's possible that what Miaoxing or even his master Henglin taught at the temple could have been the ugly Dengfeng version of luohan quan.

[SHemmati]

Amituofo,

..

Djuan, i'm a bit busy now, i'll answer tomorrow, though, the question is already very old.

[SHemmati]

Amituofo,
found this which looks similar to what Shi De Yang teaches in his dvd http://www.chinashaolinkungfu.com/18_actions.html , yet its not exactly the same lol, so with the names and different segments it gets confusing,

Deyang's, Deyong's, and Encyclopedia's luohan 18 hands are the same. except the encyclopedia moves the last elbow strike to the end.
no big deal. all sources of Shaolin are so messed up.

comparison of Deyang, Deyong, and Encyclopedia's luohan 18 hands:

I will always take De Yang as a credible source however, so my initial goal was to make sense of the 18 hands he speaks of in his dvd, in terms of historical presence and structural integrity.

Deyang's forms are good, but his info could be flat wrong:

some examples:

- in his tong bi quan vids he says tong bi tactic is to faint to a direction and attack another, while this is guandong quan tactic, tong bi doesn't use fainting.

- in his luohan 18 hands vid he talks about the mi zong forms being the core of Shaolin, while those forms are irrelevant forms from another region, not even from Shaolin!

- in his mi zong vids (and as i said those mi zong forms are not related to Shaolin), he talks about Huo Yuanjia as a master of mi zong quan, while that mi zong quan is something totally different. Huo Yuanjia's mi zong quan, also called Yan Qing quan is a northern long-fist style, something totally different. these are just totally different styles with the same name, which is a source of much confusion about Chinese martial arts. Deyang doesn't have a clue what he's talking about here; he's confused two different styles.

so, get Deyang's info with a rather big grain of salt. if anything, his information is not accurate at all.