So what's the deal with Wah Lum?

**Mantis_Hand** · 02-28-2002, 01:25 PM

I can't account for what other WL sifus are saying about other styles. I don't know these Sifus but I'm sure there are some who are guilty as well. I don't approve of them doing it either. I can just say that Sifu or not, they haven't listened close enough to Master Chan's teachings.

What it all boils down to is that all styles have their strengths and weaknesses when put in contrast with other styles. Our strong points may make up for another style's short comings as I'm sure another style's strong points will make up for our shortcomings.

I don't want to declare that Wah Lum kung fu is superior to any other style of martial art because that's just ignorant. There is a balance between all styles.

**SaMantis** · 02-28-2002, 04:28 PM

Good posts, Mantis Hand.

As far as what another WL sifu might be saying ... all I can say is there's 2 sides to every story.

What I wonder about, 18elders, is whether Master Shr knows that his students and instructors in the US are acting like punks on this forum and possibly out in the real world.

If you read back on the threads, no WL'er has said "Pong Lai sucks" -- most have tried to be polite, asked questions about PL's claims and tried to share information. We've even tried to answer their criticisms about WL politely but it seems that some PLers are determined to throw their bad experience up in our faces.

Here's the facts:
1. Several current PL students/sifus were once students of AD, who was kicked out of Wah Lum.
2. They stayed with AD, who probably had bitter feelings about WL and passed on those sentiments to his students.
3. His students, in turn, carried those bitter feelings when they joined Pong Lai.
4. And now, Pong Lai's official sales pitch (in the U.S.) is "Wah Lum sucks."

Of course, they couch that message in a lot of bull-**** about how PL teaches "real" applications, that WL is short-changing its students, etc. And PL is working VERY hard to bring WL'ers, particularly si-hings and sifus, to their school. Why are they targeting WL specifically? My guess is that they need real talent to build up their small school, they haven't got enough to sustain PL in the U.S. somehow. Strange, since their superior fighting skills should be enough to draw in flocks of new students.

Tell you what, 18elders. Why not start a PL advertising campaign with your real message: "Join Pong Lai. Because Wah Lum sucks!"

**Joe Mantis** · 02-28-2002, 09:27 PM

SaMantis

Facts 1-3 seem to be legit observations. #4 however, seems to be stirring up garbage.
Your conjectures are not helping the matter between the two schools.
Have you participated in a PL class?
Are you sure that bringing WL students/sifus/si hings to PL is on PL's agenda? Have you asked the PL sifu? Have you interviewed those who left WL for PL and gotten their reasons for leaving?
If you have I'd love to compare notes with you.

Thanks

**SaMantis** · 02-28-2002, 10:14 PM

Hi, Joe

#4 is a combination of things I'm hearing (from WL students, not sifus) about things going on in Tampa, and from what I've read here on the forum.

Not all PL'ers are being negative, however the general comment from Pong Lai is along the lines of, 'Try a style that teaches you real praying mantis; Wah Lum isn't (a) teaching you the real thing/ (b)teaching you anything/ (c)is hiding applications from you.'

18elders is the angry guy on the forum right now, he may be trying to promote PL but he's coming off in a negative way.

As far as interviewing, well, several people right here on the forum asked PL'ers why they left, and PL answered them. Can I ask them in person? If I go to St. Pete in April I'll be happy to talk to any PL'er out there, and he (or she) can try to dispel the negative perception I've developed of Pong Lai.

**NorthernMantis** · 03-01-2002, 07:37 AM

Funny thing SaM.Have you noticed that (c) contradicts (a)?

Oh and by the way who is this AD?E-mail me.

**Frogman** · 03-01-2002, 09:48 AM

Everyone wants to be the best and it may seem easier to knock the other guy’s tower down rather then build yours higher. This applies to both sides of the street!!!!!

**SaMantis** · 03-01-2002, 12:44 PM

True, Frogman.

I've been a little petty here, so I won't go stirring any more garbage. I just wanted to lay out my perception of things as they stand.

To be fair, Tainan Mantis (and Hua Lin Laoshi) have set the example and stayed above this, so I'll try to do the same.

I'd rather discuss mantis techniques/history on a friendly level with all the schools on this forum (including PL) than argue about things which have already occurred and can't be changed.

Peace,

Sam

**18elders** · 03-01-2002, 03:13 PM

To clear up one of your points-
None of us were with AD when he was kicked out so we don't have bad feelings from that situation.
Ponglai had already moved to taiwan, i was training with my kung fu brothers at the time.
We then were students of SC until he closed down his school and then we were on our own training with ourselves.
You guys all think we don't like CP, that is not true, I have nothing against him, there are many people at the temple i like and get along with, big mike and hua lin and Tu and Ben were always nice to us.
I didn't like the way whitewhirlwind took a stab at us, that's it.
Even though a sifu in tampa couldv'e been a better kung fu brother, i have nothing against him either. We all judged together last year at Nick's tournament and we all get along fine.
I admit it got a bit out-of-hand and we have tried to smooth things out with the temple.

Northern Mantis- AD is Art, ask shelly about him, she knew him.

**NorthernMantis** · 03-01-2002, 03:44 PM

18elders, my man I think you might want to take a break.Why so much anger?

Look how much time you have wasted here arguing about wah lum with others when you could have used that time to practice or do something else.I bet that almost 90 percent about your posts are about wl flaws and bashing.

At first you seemed like a mellow guy asking questions but now your just a hot head,like SaM mentioned.Don't bring yourself down to this level man.Like Sam said,I also thought whitewhirlywind was taking a stab at us too.Don't let such a petty thing like that bother you.

Just take a day or 2 away from this place and spend more time with things you love to do.Spend more time with family or friends or listen to music.You know better than that.There's more to life out there.

I challenge you to keep yourself from posting for no more than 2 days and do something contstructive.Trust me, things will seem a lot different after you are done.Are you tough enough to prove me wrong?

**Five Swords** · 03-01-2002, 03:52 PM

Hello,
I am a student at the Pong Lai school and I debated about whether or not to post a reply on the forum regarding the current situation between Pong Lai and Wah Lum. My first instinct was to just stay out of it altogether but now I feel compelled to respond and hopefully build upon the momentum that Sa Mantis started in his post .

Let me first say that I am only speaking for myself and not for anybody else at the Pong Lai school as they are quite capable of speaking for themselves.

I have some experience in other systems of martial arts but I have never trained with Wah Lum. I could not care less about the fact Wah Lum has some southern influences or as some say is limited in its mantis content as opposed to other mantis systems such as Seven Star. From what I've seen of Wah Lum I think it has something valuable to offer to any serious student of Chinese Martial Arts. Wang Lang himself pulled from many different systems when he created the Northern Praying Mantis Style so I see no problem with Wah Lum having elements of Mok Gar etc.. The bottom line is that nothing has any value except the value you place on it! For those students of Wah Lum who are happy and satisfied with Wah Lum I am sincerely happy for you! I know the frustration of trying to find the right system or a legitimate teacher!

I enjoy the training and teaching I am receiving at the Pong Lai school! The school does indeed teach alot of application and combat oriented training methods but just like any other art it still requires alot of time and effort to be effective and I will be the first to admit that I possess a very low level of skill at this point in my training! I enjoy training with 18 Elders and I consider him a friend as well as a Kung fu brother. I wonder if his original question would have been received better had he still been a student/sifu in Wah Lum when he asked it? I can certainly understand the zeal by the Wah Lum people to defend their system and their Sifu, but I think 18 Elders was sharing his experience as he perceived it. Let's face it, no school or system is immune to the politics that goes on! If you never ever have the problems he encountered than good for you! But at least consider his experience and some of the other former Wah Lum students experiences to make you more aware of the situation so it does not happen to you and more importantly so you can stop it from happening before conflicts arise that could disrupt or stop your training at your school. Especially if you're happy where you are training!

This forum could be such an revolutionary tool by which we as Chinese Martial Arts practitioners could share and exchange knowledge on a worldwide level! The skill level of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts is going to continually decline as generations go on. The majority of us have jobs, families etc. We can't devote the time and energy to develope the attributes and skill level of the great masters who existed in the past. This forum and the people who frequent it could play an integral part in the direction Chinese Martial Arts will take in the years to come! I would hate to see us waste this precious opportunity by arguing and feuding!

Any style or system is made up of individuals. I have met alot of great people through the martial arts and I am certain that there are plenty of great people at Wah Lum. I would hate to think that I may not have the wonderful opportunity and honor to meet and exchange with students of Wah Lum because of all that has happened! I respect anyone who has the courage to take up martial arts training regardless of their style or skill level!

It won't be easy, but I hope we can swallow our pride on both sides and just move forward with a renewed spirit of brotherhood and sisterhood of martial artists. Of course there will always be disagreement or difference of opinion but I think we have a responsibility that is greater than our differences of opinion or our egos. We can either contribute to each other and the Chinese Martial Arts in a positive, constructive way or we can be destructive by engaging in mudslinging. I for one would like to extend my hand of friendship to the Wah Lum students and would certainly consider it an honor to share and exchange information with you!

Sorry for the lengthy post and thank you! (At least I got some good typing practice)!

Take Care!

**woliveri** · 03-01-2002, 03:55 PM

NM, what was bad about 18E last post? I saw no anger. I see no hostility.

What's up?

**18elders** · 03-01-2002, 07:10 PM

didn't think anything was wrong, just clearing up one of her points, didn't say anything wrong.

you guys may think i'm a hot-head but as a great example there was nothing wrong with my post to Sa mantis, you jumped all over me for what?
I would jump back and then you guys call me a hot-head.
I said things got a bit heated up but i still think it was WWW's comment that got it going but you all point the finger at me.

SA Mantis- did you think anything was wrong with my post to you?

**SaMantis** · 03-01-2002, 10:20 PM

18elders, there wasn't anything wrong with your last post, I'm glad you're trying to clear things up for me. If PL and WL smooth out their differences, nothing would make me happier (well, a couple of things would, but they don't have anything to do with kung fu)

. NM was right, though -- white whirlwind's original post was confusing to everyone but a few PL folks.

Five Swords,

Thank you for posting. I feel the same way -- I would rather share friendly dialogue on mantis styles than debate politics. That may not be entirely possible on a forum, but it's worth a try. If anyone from PL would like to meet and talk mantis at the St. Pete tournament, let me know.

Sam

**whitewhirlwhind** · 03-02-2002, 02:32 AM

I apologize to everyone for the comments I made and the aggrevation that they caused. It was wrong for me to say the things I did and the way I said them.

**18elders** · 03-02-2002, 06:31 AM

should be there, would like to answer any questions and even go over your wl forms and help you out with anything i have learned.

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