list of southern kung fu styles that have no variations(only one lineage)

[jon]

With full respects to Grand master Wai Hung i dont 'think' he is the 'only' true black tiger grandmaster.
I know of him and know he himself keeps his organisation pure but that doesnt stop his ex students or even his old training partners from forming there own organisitions.
I could name of shoots of Master Wai Hungs linage right now, Tak Wah is certainly one of them.
In this respect you could not really qualify Fu Jow Pai as the ONLY Black Tiger school around. GM Wai Hungs certainly does his best to keep his art pure and his linage intact but i dont think it somehow makes him imune to the same problems that have besiged CMA for centurys.
Incendently one the orginal Black Tiger masters was a student of Wong Kai Ying of Hung Ga fame. When he finished the Black Tiger he passed on the knowledge to WKY who then added some to Hung Ga.
You can see just by this that the chances of others having a different interpretation of Black Tiger going back hundreds of years is VERY high.

All im saying is i dont think that Fu Jow Pai (fu -tiger Jow-claw) is the only interpretation of Black Tiger around.

[crazybuddha]

.

[TIger Hand]

Yeah....Tak Wah doesn't represent Fu Jow now.

We will see what happends after Wai Hong "starts walking the last mile."

[wolfkiller]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Nope. hate to burst your bubble. Choy Li Fut has Buk Sing, Hung Sing, Chan and Wing? lineages. Those are the main ones atleast. Hung gar has at the least the Village style and the "modern" style created by Wong fei Hung. The more famous a style is the more interpretations it has. I could say Pan Gai Noon but that tradition is not really in China anymore. Thats the only one i can think of. Kung Fu history is pretty secretive so it'd be impossible to get an absolutely answer, you'll have to do alot more digging than a post on a forum to find out. May i ask why you want to know this info. Not trying to be rude, i just think its an interesting question.

what is pan gai noon? i have not heard of that until now.

you see im not a practicioner of any martial art as of the moment but i am planning to study one in the future. i want to study a chinese martial art , preferably a southern style( to save me a lot of pain from all those leg streching for high kicks) but i want to study a kung fu style that has only one lineage, i just don't like the idea that there is more than one kind of a particular style or even a system.

i would prefer to study a style rather than a system because systems have too many techniques and forms, learning an entire style alone is improbable enough, learning an entire system is literally impossible( at least for people like me), i used to think there was only one kind of pakua chang and only one kind of southern praying mantis, now i find out there are many different lineages, and i have no idea what makes lineage one different from the other. i also used to think that wing chun and a northern style called pa chi chien only had one lineage too. but now i hear that they have more than one too.

looks like im running out of options, and now i find out that even kung fu systems like choy li fut and hung jia chien also have variations !


why can't people just stick to the original ?

why can't there be just one kind or lineage of a fist style or system?

[FIRE HAWK]

You might as well just learn Mauy Thaiboxing it is a good Art to learn it would be easyer to learn than Chinese Martial Arts great Elbow, knee ,and kicking techniques .There is a small walking form called Yaang Saam Khum this is the famous stealthy Thai boxers walk. I have a giant book on Thai boxing that has alot of stuff on the art and three other books on Thai boxing too .Thai boxing is one of my favorite Martial Arts .

[Leonidas]

Well im into Okinawan Martial arts so thats why i brought up that style. Pan gai Noon is now called Uechi Ryu (sorry thats Karate) because Kanei Uechi added some Okinawan "parts" to it. The original style was created by Shushiwa of Southern China consisting of elements of Crane, Tiger and Dragon boxing and was passed to an Okinawan named Kanbun Uechi. The only organziation that teaches it like it was original created goes by the name of Zankai which is somewhere in Japan. Its extinct in China. The style that Kanei Uechi made already has atleast 4 off shoots in the last 50 years alone.

I think your basing your choice on the wrong criteria. Even Southern styles have high kicks and for any physical actitvity you have to stretch. Your should read up on all the Kung Fu arts and make a choice from that. I also think you have a misconception about systems and styles. I dont see whats the difference but just because something is classified as a "system" doesn't mean it'll have more forms. Actually it seems to me that what people call styles usually have a larger amount of forms. What systems were you talking about anyway. Systems are supposed to be about concepts and theories brought to life through techniques, you can have many technique variables from one concept. An art can't totally be one or the other, style have concepts too.......... read the main board for more on this.

Its really all about what catches your interest and how you wanna fight. Using throws, punches, kicks, short or long distance techniques, simplistic or artistic forms, palm strikes, finger strikes or closed fists, circular or linear, aggressive or passive etc..........The differences go on and on, a style for every personality. I seriously doubt theres any one lineage styles. Someone is gonna always think that they can make an imrovement or they'll add there own flavor to it from experiences or preferences. I'll even mail you 10 bucks if you can find a one lineage southern kung fu style.

[David Jamieson]

why can't people just stick to the original ?

this is an excellent question.

My understanding is that Martial arts styles and systems are ever adapting and flexible to the needs of the artist and also the times.

To every strike there is a counterstrike in martial arts.
As an art grows, well... it grows.
Some styles are created to defeat other styles. Some styles are developed for a specific range then need to incorporate other ranges when the need arises.

The Shaolin recognized the constant flux and metamorphosis of fighting style and incorporated much of the knowledge they had about it into their systems that later were distributed to the public through various happenstance.

Also individual people are different in size shape and ability. Martial arts from a large depth of knowledge such as is in the Shaolin repetoire can be adapted to fit the practitioner without sacrificing the essence. Nevertheless, the practitioners interpretation is what is carried forward in time and hence the art evolves further.

In other words, If I have a hand, you get a stick, then I'll get a sword, then you'll get a bow and arrow, then I'll get a gun and so on it goes. The evolution of combat arts according to strategic and tactical need is what drives the evolution of the information inside a system of martial arts. The empty hand aspects of combat are still being explored by each and everyone who studies a martial art. Even though they have been studied for quite some time.

peace

[joedoe]

There are several lineages of Fukkien 5 Ancestors Fist. There are schools from Malaysia, Phillipines, China, and Indonesia just to mention a few, and each of them is slightly different.

Like Kung Lek said, arts must evolve and change otherwise they die - they become obsolete. Aside from that, they are arts and as such are different for every practitioner. Each sifu will teach the art differently because each sifu is different.

Best of luck in finding the right school.

[wolfkiller]

how can a style become obsolete? wouldn't that be like saying a punch or a joint lock or a kick can become obsolete.

i mean an effective punch or block is still an effective punch or block regardless of the era right ?

sure every attack has a counter and so on but isn't the effectiveness of an attack or counter more dependent on the amount of hard work and internalization of the individual than on the style? so how can a style become obsolete?

by the way, does anyone know where i can learn some extinct or nearly extinct kung fu styles ?

[stonecrusher69]

In regardes to Do Wai and j. lacy I personaly have a number of there video tapes a student of do wai's is demo a chi gong set while do wai and J. lacy are talking in the back ground it does not seem to me that they realize that there voices are be recorded .Do Wai is explaining to lacy how he fabricated this chi gong set last night,and how there are going to sell this video tape to Ed Parker people and get rich.Need I say more...The wolverine...

[Ima Pseudonym]

sorry for the delay in reply, i don't usually check KFO on the weekend.

fierce tiger:
in response to your question, i am quite certain that our Grandmaster is the one and only lineage holder of Bak Fu Pai. whether he ever trained with anyone else i am not really privy to, but i fail to see how training with other masters would affect the purity of a lineage. it is my understanding that it was common practice at one time for masters to exchange knowledge among each other.

jon:
as far as lineage goes, i wouldn't really think just anyone who learned a little of a style or used the name for recognition would be considered a "lineage holder". from what i have been taught the official lineage has to be passed down in a certain way and only to those chosen by the current lineage holder. i agree with you that a system as old as Bak Fu Pai (over 300 years) would normally have fragmented into different lineages by now, but since the system was taught completely closed door until about 5 years ago this has not been the case.

talk to ya'll later, and have a great day

[feldor]

I can confirm just as FT did. Bak Fu Pai has a mixture of other styles within the system. Lung Ying for example. Chom Bo Kuen is another. Chom Bo Kuen is essentialy Jik Bo. Doo Wai did learn from CLC as a child.

If you are privy to any Bak Mei, observe it and BFP. If you have a few years under your belt, you will see. But remember, don't be closed minded when you watch.

Charles

[Ima Pseudonym]

i don't doubt Bak Mei and Bak Fu Pai look similar given the close contact of the founders. however, the point i was trying to make was the actual Bak Fu Pai lineage is one pure line regardless of other things that might have been picked up along the way. the system was founded in 1644 and passed down from one lineage holder to another since then.

well, gotta' get back to trainin', i'll try to check back soon

D

[joedoe]

It is not a punch or a kick that makes a style - you can only kick and punch so many ways. IMHO the essence of a style is not the punches or kicks it uses, but the way they are combined to provide an effective philosophy of attack/defence/counter-attack.

So, as fighting methods evolve, so must a style otherwise it becomes obsolete. If your style has no answer for a particular fighting method, then it must develop one or become deficient in that area. With enough deficiencies comes obsolesence.

[stonecrusher69]

you mention that bak fu pai is a pure line from one linage holder to the next,but how do you know that for sure.Where you there.Do wai says in one of his video that Foon do duk pick up some arts while traveling around China,so my question to you or anyone is how do you define pure linage?