Tai Chi In MMA ???

[elua]

Knifefighter I do train empty handed and yes I`m a grappler(wrestling and a little BJJ) and a boxer, BUT I also believe in enviromental traing and also training in street atire. If the UFC was held in a checkout line at Walmart, a phone booth, on a city bus or even a concrete floor I would believe it to be more reality based.

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

As I responded on another thread--works for me. It's a bit like calling an potato a pommes de terre. Doesn't change the potato any

Just so long as we all UNDERSTAND what we're talking about, the terminology is just...terminology. Standard terminology is nice, but obviously not necessary.

[Water Dragon]

Why is it that so many people here have so much trouble understanding that non-cooperative sparring (as seen in MMA) is a valuable training method. A valuable part of a total training regiman including bag work, two partner drills, and yes, forms and stances.

Me thinks that some people might be scared of the pain and try to belittle the benefits of playing with someone who like to play rough as well. Then they don't have to feel bad about avoiding training methods.

[wufupaul]

Hey man, where do you live? Maybe someone on this board knows of a good tai chi school near you where they retain alot of the combat usage. I'd love to see if you talk the same way about tai chi if you meet a good practitioner of it,

[Braden]

MP - That's about what's going on. People get confused over terminology. You hear 'dian xue' and think 'Oh my god DEATH TOUCH!? These guys are idiots,' while what a competent dian xue practitioner is really thinking about is the best way to hammer you really friggin hard in the mastoid.

I'm being partial and reactionary here. Surely as much fault lies on the people who go around telling people they can immobilize the best wrestler by pressing a finger into their spine - both the kids who fall for the kungfu fantasy movie crap, and the adults cashing in on it.

There's alot, alot of crap kungfu out there. Although knifefighter is sure to chime in telling me I'm wrong, I also believe there's alot, alot of crap muay thai, wrestling, and judo out there as well. Does that invalidate what everyone else is doing?

These threads kind of make me laugh. MA Fanatic is here telling people who have entered the ring that they can't enter the ring. He IS the kid at the sidelines of a game telling all the players the suck. And it's the above attitudes that have, albeit perhaps honestly enough, given him his wierd ideas.

I mean, case in point: his post where he says "yeah those are nice fancy ideas, but when you step in the ring you need techniques!" I've got to assume he was just reacting against the chinese way of naming their movements - ie. against a cultural issue. When you cut through the nonsense, what went on is that taiji guys on this thread actually had a discussion about what techniques they work on for ring fighting, and no one else did. And the taiji guys were attacked for it. When you open your eyes, it's obvious how silly this is.

[elua]

Water Dragon you might be correct but do you think when you are over 40 with alot of injuries under your belt you will still want to "Play" rough and risk not being able to work? I`m pretty beat up from years of playing rough and even though I still like to fight all out I am alot more careful than I used to be.

[Water Dragon]

Well, you don't have to do it your whole life. But IMO, you need to do it for at least a while. (the training for the competition, not necesarily the competition itself)

[Shooter]

Braden, excellent contributions. Thanks for putting this tangent to rest and quelling another ground-swell of ignorance.

[Liokault]

Shooter are you thinking of doing some MMA (or have you done so in the past)? If so how are you planning on handling the ground fighting side of it?
I am not sure about ground fighting my self from a self defense point of view after a personal experiance with fighting more than 1 guy at a time on the ground but obviously if your going to the ground in the "ring" you need to either know ground fighting your self or at least how to counter it.

Anyway what im really interested in is how do you fit ground fighting into Tai Chi.

[wufupaul]

I'm not Shooter, he has more experience with this stuff than I do, but I can tell you how I use tai chi on the ground. It's similar to standing push hands..if they push, I pull, they pull, I push..same as on the feet..take them where they want to go, and then carry it further. If they give me an arm or leg, I'll lock it. If they give me their head, I'll twist it. I usually just reserve my energy and try to get on top to smother, if I'm on bottom..no worries..I'll feel their balance and wait until I can roll them over. I can also fajing from the ground..if my back is on the ground, that is my base, or root, and then the exhalation through the dan tien, I can still strike pretty hard, it just takes training and getting used to the different environment. Basically, it's alot like the stand up game, using sensitivity, staying relaxed, and maximum pressure on the opponent,

[Liokault]

Interesting......We have some ex judo guys training with us who take me to the ground somtimes. After the initial suprise and pain of arm bars ect, i can now more or less stop my self being locked. I am sure that with more time to practice with thease guy i could work some things out but i feel that any one who is going to be taken to the ground by some one GOOD on the ground would need more than this.

[MA fanatic]

Wow: This thread is certainly gaining some interest. I love a good debate. Just to clarify my position before I procede. I do not believe that Tai Chi is a useless art. As a matter of fact i am against it being taught in a New Age fashion. 99% of Tai Chi schools teach a watered down version. Actually, 99% of the schools most likely teach only 85% of the art (numbers are my own estimates).

Where do I live? I live in IL. I would not give my name and address on line for obvious reasons. I think most of you tough guys would also not release certain personal information for everyone to see if you had families (though I am sure most you guys are stable lol). There are 3 Tai Chi schools in my area. I train in a local bjj school. I also frequently travel to a near by gym for thai boxing.

Can a Tai Chi practitioner beat me? Sure. Why not. Anyone can defeat anyone. I have beaten people, and was beaten myself. That's part of life.

Why I order material from Earl Montaigue? Because he is represented in numerous publications, including BB Magazine, as a world reknown authority on Tai Chi and Dim Mak. Why should I not study his stuff? Actually, his material isn't bad. He seems like a strong guy, with vast knowledge of anatomy/physiology, well versed in forms interpretation and a good instructor.

Repulsive: I never said that I don't believe your friend ever killed anyone. Certainly, he has nothing to be proud of if he did. I'm sure a strong aikido instructor with no punching experience can punch out a street thug. Just like I'm sure a wrestler can kick a street thug in the legs knocking him to the ground. Just like I am sure a strong Tai Chi practitioner can be hard to grapple with.
An art is only as good as the individual.

What I am sick and tired of hearing is people who make unsubstantiated statements about the deadliness of their technique but refusing to prove themselves as an act of good will. "I would destroy anyone that fights in NHB, I just don't want to hurt anyone." While NHB competitors are saying, "let us worry about ourselves, you just get your but in the ring and be ready to accept our not-so-deadly basic punching, kicking and grappling." Every art has deadly techniques. Trust me, if Rickson wanted his apponents dead, they would have been dead. If Mario Sperry wanted his apponents paralized, they would have been paralyzed. He had enough skill to win without doing much harm. So far Tai Chi masters said, "we would either have to kill, which we don't want to do, or we don't bother with this foolishness. Now students believe that what we pass on is the deadliest of all techniques." Believe on what basis I ask? If Rickson teaches me an armbar, I have seen him take out some of the toughest fighters who outweigh him by as much as 60lbs using that armbar. If a KI fighter teaches me kick/punch combinations, I have seen him KO his apponents using those combinations. When I hear pressure point experts talk about their deadliness, all I hear are stories which are not only never witnessed, they have occured a hundred years ago. When probed, none of these masters can recall names, cities where these deadly blows were delivered, who killed who, what were the conciquences, why did people fight in the first place, etc. etc. You have to admit that there is a difference between hearing stories and seeing facts.

I don't have trust issues. I actually believe people. In general, I believe people are good. But there are those who would manipulate the vulnerable, telling them tales to collect money, preach, and/or rationalize why they don't prove the skills they teach.

FINAL NOTE TO MA FANATIC CRITICS
I'm not sure why some disagree with my posts. If I post right now that I found a teacher who mastered the deadliest techniques, but refuses to fight anyone because he is "too deadly," you guys would be the first to laugh at me. What if I told you that this teacher had his skills past down to him through secret societies in ancient Rome? You still wouldn't believe me. You'd laugh at me and ask for proof. Then I would tell you that my teacher is a good man, very deadly, and had seen many of his deadly techniques used in Italy? He asks me to trust him, devote years of study just so he could pass this knowledge onto me. He will teach me to defeat any Kung Fu master, grappling master, and even Olympic Gold Medal wrestler. But, he will forbid me to use his skills because I would have to kill. It's either kill or nothing. You guys would be rolling on the floor laughing. You would be posting that I am some gramar school kid who watched Gladiator with Russel Crow once too many times. Yet, you guys say the same thing. LOL Wake up!!

MA fanatic

[wufupaul]

MA, first off, your percentages mean nothing, because you made them up. They gave me a chuckle, though, hehe. There are alot more tai chi schools than your percentages that practice the combat aspects, but it's not as out in the open as the mma stuff is. It's up to the teacher to decide who and what to teach, and they are usually alot more selective in their teaching process. "I would destroy anyone that fights in NHB, I just don't want to hurt anyone." Nobody said that..Repulsive mentioned some instances, Lio mentioned some instances, I'm sure they don't care if you believe them or not. I'd hope that you don't care that I think you've never gone against a good tai chi person, either. BTW, I've never learned a single meridian pressure point in training. I know the general muscle/nerve strikes that everyone seems to know, and I do attack those. Your ideas about pressure points are off..reread some of the earlier posts..like Braden's, for instance. Pressure points are the icing on the cake, they aren't anything close to a first attempt in most circumstances. If I was fighting you, I'd try and get in an advantageous position, then, from there..I might knee you in the face, or whack you in the back of the head..who knows, lol. I'm not gonna be thinking about stomach 9 or any other point, I'm going to react and attack according to what's available.

[Archangel]

wufupal,


This is what Repulsive Monkey said:

"A well trained Tai Chi practitioner wouldn't step into a NHB ring because he would end killing someone. Dian Xue (press point spotting) is when learnt correctly, will not just hurt someone but in 90% of the cases will kill someone."

Lets say what he says is true and I do go against a Tai Chi practioner on the street who knows these techniques. Whats he going to do, kill me because I took a swing at him. Is this really the mindset you guys have, go for the kill in every situation. Complete and Utter Bull Sh1t !!!!!

[beautifulvaley]

MA fanatic: I find your posts intresting just wondering if you have been in the ring before for a mma fight