Racism in the MA!

[SifuAbel]

The cycle of abuse continues. Besides personal race, the reason for this anti-other arts attitude is best blamed on the individual teacher for passing on the idea. Competition between schools always lead to comtemptuous talk. "the guy down the street is no good, come be my student." It happens on a broader base between whole styles. This also dates back to the severe hate between china and japan. People have no idea that the prejudice they are spouting on about has nothing even remotely to do with them in the west.

Kung fu is weak chinese dance, do karate; Karate is japanese posing and they copied what they could from kung fu, do kung fu." As so on for a thousand years. It's stupid and its the teachers fault for training their students that way.

[Stacey]

Well in truth, Karate is a fighting style from China...when the Okinowan masters got to a high level they would go to china to pick up more techs to strengthen their system.

Chinese Masters did this too, but since they were already on the mainland, they didn't have to go far.


Think of it like England and the rest of Europe with swordfighting. English people went to Italy and Germany, but not many Germans and Italians went to England. English swordplay was very good, but the Italian masters eventually developed to a higher level with the rapier for single combat.

In Paradox of Arms, some English guy counters it all, but its basically the same thing in the Orient. The difference being that karate and Kung Fu are more similar than different. How can I go on about what they don't have? How do I know? I can only judge by their students.

Bottom line, it depends on how much they know, and how well the students can apply it.


Your style won't save you, knowlege and body intelligence will.

[red_fists]

Hmm.

Funny how I live in racist Japan with many other Ex-pats and we seem to enjoy it. Got japanes wife, Family and work for japanese Companies.

Gaijin = literally means Alien or a non-japanese Person.
Sometimes it is used in a bad way to insult people.
Gai = outside
Jin = Person

The corrrect term is "Gaikokujin" or foreign national, but most shorten it to "Gaijin" for convenience.
koku = Country.

Yes, Japan & Japanese have some racist tendencies and so does EVERY nation on earth.


If Japan would be the only racist country, how about Israel??

Seeya.

[Chinwoo-er]

I think it is the result of many different factors. the first and most obvious is the "my style is better than their's" attitude. Definately a killer in multi-culturalism.

But I think there are other factors which is just as devastating that makes japanese practitioners become anti-chinese MA.

First, wushu and the unobvious nature of kungfu forms.
Now, we know how the performance wushu are like. And we are very clear on distunguishing between them. However, as far as the non-chiense practitioners are concerned, they are all just CMA. Nothing different. Hence, by relating kung fu with performance wushu, they find CMA nothing much flashy, unusful moves.

Also, if you look at our forms, to an outsider's point of view, they are very "flashy". Or as least, the meanings behind them are no obvious. Does anyone still remember their first lesson ? And how we kept wondering " what the heck am I doing ? " In JMA katas, their the meanings of their moves are shown. A kick is a kick, a punch is a punch. but for CMA, things ain't like that. Without this reference to their own style, they have no other conclusion but to state that they have no meaning at all.

Another thing. people tend to see kung fu as one style. Like karate. this kind of....... degrading of status makes it less imposing in the mind.

There seems to be a somewhat "fix" concept of what "fighting" is. the straight punch, hook kick, wrestling, ideas seems to be quite hardwired into the common people's minds. Together with reinforcements from training in that direction, people take it as the fundamental core of fighting. As long as this is satisfied, everything else is open to disuccsion. Now, if you demonstrate a CLF Sau quan, or a Mantis Dui sou, it has little resemblence with the fundamental core. hence, being classified as being "non correct" fighting techniques. Because it is not correct, it is of a lower form.

Actaully, i have plenty more. But I get the feeling what I have put down is already going to give rise to come controvasy. hence, I end it here.

[dezhen2001]

wow - this thread has got a lot of posts since yesterday! Hopefully it won't degenerate in to what's been happening here lately...

Every society is unsure of something it doesn't understand, hence ppl are generally more wary of other cultures. Hence when in another country, ppl of the same culture tend to stick together.

for example: the 'chinese students' at University as Sharky etc. mentioned already (in another thread). The Japanese/foreigner relationship is the other side of the coin. Both sides not sure of the other.

Of course, people are all different. For example, i have many friends at my Uni from all over the world. Most are chinese or malay/chinese in origin. But many others in my class have not even made any attempt at communicating or making friends with them. Kinda sux. Of course, my friends have not really been bothered or attempted to make any contact with them either. So it's both sides fault.

If you still follow this prejudice and are teaching others, then of ocurse it may pass off on to them. Hence the reason why there is so much beef in MA today between styles and cultures etc.

david

[lordabu]

i find it annoying, how people attack japanese for not liking foreigners.

This occurs for every race. I'll give you an example.

Indians call whites firenghees (what we used to call the british, it basically means white scum)

Gujus (state) , call all whites, "dhorias" and blacks "kalus" (usually as an insult towards their colour)

English likewise call indians "pakis", blacks "******s" etc..

Racism, only affects one person if you allow it to affect you. If you called me a paki id probably just laugh with you. I have reached that stage where mental abuse of that kind (or any kind) really doesnt bother me. I really dont care if people "swear" at me, as i have realised that swearing only becomes swearing if you want it. Thus in that same case, if you are being rude or racist to me i know that its aimed at me to hurt me, thus if i dont let it hurt me then voila we both become happy.

Most of you are lets say more adept and open minded then other people i have met, thus dont let racism ever become an issue in your lives. Next time someone calls you a *****, jap or paki etc.. just laugh, smile etc.. its their loss they dont realise the potential and beauty of your wonderful cultures.

Lordabu

[lordabu]

hmm where it says *****, i meant to say "ch*nk", just so you know

oh and im guessing you can figure out what comes after "blacks"

Lordabu

[Yung Apprentice]

I've never encountered racism on the behalf of asian people in my experience. Japanese, Chinese, Philipino etc. I give respect, I get respect. Even older asian people. Sometimes it seems if I go to a store or a resteraunt, a few might SEEM to be rude. But I think it has to do more with a language barrier, and cultral differences. But I wouldn't count that as being racist. Racism is in many places. I've been hated on by both white folx, and black folx, just as I'm sure people of both groups have felt racism by hispanics too.(I'm hispanic) Does that mean I feel that all are this way? Course not.

[AndyM]

Hi again,

I appreciate that some people may want to talk about real life Racism here, and I was afraid it might happen, but that is not why I started the thread. Please look at the question again if you would.

Don't start me on Racism ( English Bar Stewards ).

AndyM

[raving_limerick]

Originally posted by AndyM
Hi again,

I appreciate that some people may want to talk about real life Racism here, and I was afraid it might happen, but that is not why I started the thread. Please look at the question again if you would.

Don't start me on Racism ( English Bar Stewards ).

AndyM

I'm not sure I understand what question you're asking. Do you want to know why many Japanese stylists seem to believe that their arts are superior, or are you questioning the idea of style-bias in general?

I think the second question was rather well answered by Sifu Abel, while the first seems to be a matter of perspective. I think you'll find both problems in the CMA community as well, just expressed differently.

But if you're asking an entirely different question from either two examples, I appologize.

[AndyM]

OK,

I was brought up so as; someone asks me what I think of Blah Style...........I say "yeah, good style"!

Over the years I just keep coming up against M Artists who seem to be being told to say; what do you think of Blah style..........and they say " utter crap, Xway ot Noway".

In one case I am thinking of a particular Japanese style, nay club which regularly produces world class Kumite players, although there are no Japanese people in the club.

I appreciate you guys are saying "hey, thats life", but surely negative propoganda like this only adds to the confusion the public have over the arts in general.

I was asking why I got it more from the Japanese stylists than anybody else, but maybe this is purely locational, or a product of my own bias.............................................. ...

Ta

AndyM

[raving_limerick]

Okay, I see what you're saying now. Forgive me, I'm as thick as brick wall sometimes

Anyhow:

"I was asking why I got it more from the Japanese stylists than anybody else, but maybe this is purely locational, or a product of my own bias.............................................. ... "

I think this is, and take this with a grain of salt, a difference between the Japanese and Chinese martial art communities. While the Japanese seem to me to be more united in their opposition to other arts, there's definitely a lot more infighting amongst the CMA types. While karate clubs slag off on other styles, we bicker over lineage, north v. south, internal v. external... It's only after we CMAs are done fighting with themselves that we attack other styles.

IMHO (and VERY humble opinon at that) I think that the difference really stems from the way that Japanese arts are very documented and regimented as opposed to a lot of kung-fu styles are more or less taught outside of organizations, with a few exceptions. Am I making sense?

It's just the nature of the beast, nothing really bad one way or the other.

edited for clarity. I hope.

[red_fists]

AndyM.

Might be your local condition.

I have met many JMA (done some as well) and haven't found that.

Most JMA will react when they are told that they are doing a watered down version of CMA or similar.

I think it is more personal than specific.
Look at E-Budo and even to a certain degree here on KFO and other Boards, where we have CMA, KMA & JMA Guys posting together. I still consider BJJ as a JMA.
Also over here in Japan most people seem to be very open to CMA and we don't get hassled by the JMA guys either, more of a situation of mutual respect.

Many places in Japan have CMA & JMA sharing the same space. Mine is one.
Said that I have found that even doing public training in the park is very different from my experiences in the West.
I often get approached and asked what style I do and sometimes People ask me to show them a thing or two in a friendly manner and than they show me one or two moves of their own.
Some even ask if I don't mind them training along for a bit.

Greatest memory was of a 2 mainland chinese coming up and asking why "I" as a Guy was practicing Fan Forms as they are traditionally only taught to women.
The Wife than asked to borrow my Fan and showed/demoed the Form that she had learned.

None fo this ego thing, like "Think you can take me", "Wanna, spar." & "Think you are a tough Guy", etc.

Somehow the Scene over here is more relaxed, often with a few styles practicing right next to each other and the occassional nod of approval.
Just some experiences from a Guy that does CMA in Japan.

[scotty1]

That sounds like an excellent situation to train in Red Fists.

[red_fists]

That sounds like an excellent situation to train in Red Fists.
Yes, it is very nice and allows for a nice relaxed workout.

The Place where I train on the weekend is in an open area of teh park behind a railway station and often People waiting for a Train watch us train.

One thing I like many People actually recognise that we do Tai Chi and I oftenn hear comments like "Oh, he is doing Tai Chi".