Shen Wu Tournament Clips

[Daniel Madar]

I agree with david whole heartedly.

I have sparred a bit with taiji, which I know david does not approve of...

Even so, what I found was that if I did not make a concerted effort to use the movements as I trained in them, I would get torn up, because I was essentially street fighting. You build a foundation in training. Why do so many people abandon it the second they enter a fight?

It was hard for me to understand that when I tried sparring using taiji. Naturally enough, at first there was just the nerves and the adrenaline. It had been ages since I sparred, and so I just went in there and willy nilly tossed out some sorry punches and kicks. They may have touched the guy I was sparring every now and then, but hell if they could have done damage.

After a while, I began to wonder...

"Golly, I am getting schooled. Could it be because I am not using anything I learned in taiji?"

So, I began to try to throw brush knees, a high pat horse here and there, a palm change. Certainly they werent the most beautiful things on earth, but a watcher could have clearly watched and said "2nd change", "repulse monkey". And naturally enough, it was my first time using them in sparring, so it was rough edged regardless.

Even so I was still getting schooled.

Why, because the guy I was fighting was a wado-Ryu karate guy, who would bounce around at a safe distance, angling for opening, bounce in and bounce out.

Essentially, I was playing his game. I may have been using techniques from taiji and bagua, but I was not using taiji or bagua.

So I began to try to do more than just a technique here or a technique there. When Karate guy jumped in, I slipped behind him. When he tried to turn, I stuck to him. When he tried to back out, I read it and added the little extra to knock him off balance and apply a high pat horse to the abs.

Thats when I was doing taiji. Did he still hit me? Sure, but thats what happens in sparring. The important part wasnt beating him, or taking him down. The important part was learning to use what I learned correctly and effective, from the ground up.

I think this is the fundemental problem with the clips here. That being said, I enjoyed them. Perhaps a bit more explanation is warranted, though. I would never have known the guy in black was holding back because of bad ribs and a sprained toe, but I did know he was holding back.

[Kumkuat]

I'm sure the ShenWu people are good fighters. They can probably kick my arse no problem. But you know, I'm wondering if they are using internal principles like relaxing, sinking, maintaining jing, moving from the dantien, etc., when sparring. Or are they just using the techniques externally. That is using local arm and shoulders? How long do they train before they spar? 1 year? 2 years? 10 years?

[Shooter]

Phantom Menace, why not what?

Why not are you afforded the right to pass judgement and negative commentary on the fighting skill of other IMA players?

I only know of one Tai Chi school in North America currently fielding fighters in the public MMA arena.

[Shin]

Why should I bother being respectful. If you put yourself out there on the web showing clips of your fighting skillz, then you put yourself out for commentary and criticism. I respect the willingness to receive both.

So far, not only have the shen wu failed to win my respect for their technique, they have failed to do so for the attitude they demonstrate in responding to criticism, when they have tacitly invited it. Or did I miss the banner that said, "please only comments about our techniques if you think we are cool"?

[bamboo_ leaf]

I don’t fight any more. My points come from a very long time of practice and observation. They where not meant as a put down only a reflection of what I saw.

As for me, my skill is very low compared to the many here. If some one has a question about skills then I am very happy to help them to understand my points. In person is always best.

As Daniel said I don’t favor this type of sparring because I feel it leads to confusion regarding real TC usage verses something else. What was shown is the why i think many people question CMA. There was no correlation between what was shown on the practice clips and that of free style usage even against another classmate. Aggression doesn’t count as skill but it may win a fight.

As for the skill in the clips, ask”Shooter” what he thought of how they controlled the space / ring , or how they closed the gap established a bridge and made use of the dreaded fa-jing that many talk about.

I don’t agree with what some may call TC boxing either. But that’s just me.

[bamboo_ leaf]

What many I think don’t understand is the use of what is called conscious awareness verses condition reflexes.

For me this is the heart of TC in what ever from it takes. But I also think it is very hard to really get to this level.

[Sum Guye]

Firstly, Kumkuat, students at Shen Wu are welcome
to spar as soon as they want to. I haven't seen any nut-cases wander in looking for blood yet, but everyone can find someone to spar at their level if they want to. (and yes, when we spar we try to maintian the internal principles and techniques we've learned- it's not so easy if/when you're getting beaned by your opponent who is also trying to use the same principles and techniques on you)

Secondly, as for the level of technique displayed, that tournament was almost every fighters first full contact experience- when we spar we don't generally go 'all out'. So it shouldn't surprise anyone who has experienced a full contact assault (with or without headgear) that most of the fighters weren't exhibiting the much desired relaxation and smooth techniques we're working towards. So yes, other than a few shining moments- most of the fighters were not using their best jing. (the fights were two 3-minute rounds the clips you're seeing are just snippits of the action from one angle).

Thirdly, Even though I won my fight I'm a bit chagrined by my own performance. I learned a heck of a lot and the experience was great. There is a great boxing adage: "every fighter has a plan until they get hit" which was certainly true for me. All the great moves I'd planned for weeks didn't work out like I'd 'planned'. That's where 'skill' comes in... I may not have much skill but I'm a heck of a lot closer to skill than those who haven't tested theirs in an actual full-contact fight. (also, I've seen videos taken from diferent angles- it's amazing how the angle can drasticly effect what the viewer thinks they're seeing).

Lastly, For those of you who say you've lost respect for Tim Cartmell because of what you
saw in several 45 second clips of guys having their first full contact tournament- well, you'll never understand what you are missing. That's a real shame... but hey, more class time for me.

Happy training,
Shane

[Shin]

For the record, I want to make sure that no one thinks I ever had respect for Cartmell to begin with, though I liked the xing yi nei gong book.

[Phantom Menace]

Shin,

Please stop...take your foot out of your mouth. You're making an a hole of yourself.

People who couldn't come to the tournament wanted to see it on the web. That's why it was posted. It's not meant to show off or impress you. I could care less what you think of it. Unless you come down and have at it with an advance Shen Wu student, you don't really know what you're talking about. Your criticism deserve no merit. I don't believe you are in a position to judge or criticise anybody anyway. Why don't you come down and judge quality of a Shen Wu fighter in person then you can post your experience all you want. I'm sure there's somebody that will ablige you.

Talk is cheap. Be a man of action. It easy to be an armchair critic when you feel safe behind your computer.

Shooter,

Why don't you show us some IMA player fighting in mixed martial arts tournament.

[Shin]

I see it has once again degenerated to name calling and challenging.

Oh, oh, I am so very scared.

If the tournament was posted so that people who couldnt come could see it, its pretty easy to make a private page, even if you just create one without a link and pass out the URL directly.

So, sorry, either you did it to show the public, or you were too dumb to figure out how to do it privately.

As for your belief that I am not in a position to judge or criticize... Quite honestly, I don't care what you believe. To be honest, I am surprised you care what I believe either, but you seem incapable of separating the internet from reality.

Trapped in the Matrix are we? Its alright, you know kung fu.


Now, as to going to Shen Wu, I have said before that I travel alot. If I am ever in the neighborhood I will swing by. Not a problem. Like I said, I spend most of my time in India these days though.

I think you feel bad that you posted the vids here, hoping everyone would tell you how cool it looks, and I called you on it. Well, sucks to be you. I hope you cry yourself to sleep tonight.

[Shin]

From the Shen Wu website discussion board.


"I won't post anymore, i prefer to practice anyway. Best Regards to all."

That's too bad. Even though I might be a little 'too sensitive' to your posts, you do raise good dialogue.

Don't quit because someone doesn't like what you say. This is a discussion board, it should raise issues that make you think about your original position. No offense, but to publically just quit like this and then state "well, I prefer to practice anyway" only gives the impression that you are taking a 'I'm better than you' attitude. If you really believe this, why did you post in the first place? Was it to hear different opinions or was it to show others that you are a real good martial artist in the know?

I don't state this to cause trouble, but if you want other opinion's post or give yours. There are some pretty interesting characters that I don't necessarily like that give their opinions on this board, but after I weed through the 'shock' they often do have very valid points.

Sometimes, growing is very painful.

[Internal Boxer]

To be honest I thought it was very good, very practical. I have done full contact "anything goes" and been in a few street fights what I have learned has served me well, and I feel the type of training shown in the clips is an excellent way to learn to defend yourself in a real street fight.

But if Shin feels differently about this then fine, I understand his point of view, I cannot say I agree with him but he has the right to his opinion. So please lets not get angry about this cause it is not worth the energy. No matter what others say about it just take in on the chin like a good right hook.

[NafAnal]

forgive me for being thick shooter, but i'm still trying to figure out if you are for or against those clips

from your first post it sounded like you said the shenwu guys have no right to be passing judgement, and the second it sounded like you say they have all right....

it's probably me just being dumb...

If memory serves me correct, you have fought mma haven't you shooter?

[Phantom Menace]

Shin,

give it up.

[Shooter]

NafAnal, I was asking Phantom Menace what he meant when he asked "Why Not?" And gave an example of what I thought he meant. I'm not for, or against the clips. I liked some of the things that were going on in the matches.

I've done a bit of MMA over the last 5 years. My Tai Chi school has fielded a number of MMA fighters. Some first-year players, even.

As for the skill in the clips, ask”Shooter” what he thought of how they controlled the space / ring , or how they closed the gap established a bridge and made use of the dreaded fa-jing that many talk about.

leaf, are you kidding? I know nothing...