Are traditional MA methods useless?

[red5angel]

I am sure this has been said already a few times in this thread but I would like to say it again anyway, the human body hasn't changed drastically in the last few hundred years. Although some trianing methods have improved our health, toughness what ever, most of it is just a different way of doing the same thing.
The problem with martial arts in general is that some guy goes out, finds something that works for him and decides to incorporate it into training, whether it really helps everyone or not. Much like the fad diets that are now popular, they work for certain people, but everyone is looking for that secret technique, the special way of doing something that works for them. sorry guys, its not out there, whether you are trianing TMA or "modern" you are still training in the martial arts.
There are only so many excersises you can do for each muscle group, most are redundant. You can take drugs that enhance performance, you can train harder, whatever.
some people are mistaking the way some schools train as representative of what is TMA and what is modern.

Bottom line, if it works for you, then it works for you. But dont make the mistake of comparing a teapot to a teapot, just because your teapot is bigger, has a different color, or works a little differently, it is still a teapot.

[red_fists]

MP.

I'm absolutely sick of asking questions that in my mind are reasonable and getting the "you wouldn't understand," answer. It's a bull**** copout.

It is not a copout. I am a non-Christian, can you explain to me what Faith, a Soul is like, how it motivates you.

Problem is that our reference frames are different and thus we can NEVER come to an answer that would satisfy us both.

And thus you will never understand what we are saying as you don't have our frame of reference,

Plain and simple logic, nothing else.

Peace.

[scotty1]

Forgive me Merry if I take the liberty of re-phrasing your post into a direct question, as I would like to know the answer myself, as I do both.

"Why would weight training inhibit internal training whereas something like farmwork wouldn't when there is nothing DIFFERENT between lifting weights and farmwork? "

Seems like a fairly sensible question to me.

man, this discussion is going all over the place isn't it?

[dezhen2001]

i think we are all trying our best to explain where we are coming from, but as Red said, neither of us has experienced the other to any high level, so don't know enough about it.

Many of us at any one time could have said "You don't understand" but we are all trying to explain things so each other can grow.

It's a very difficult area, as do any of us have enough experience to conclusively say things one way or the other?

Remember science is just a collection of theories and data that CURRENTLY explain things. It can always change. Even Chinese Medicine is always advancing and incorporating new things, but the principles have always been the same. It's not all some 2000 year old mumbo jumbo, but a science. Just the same as physics, chemistry etc. all have a framework that they work from, so does this form of science...

more thoughts,
david

[red_fists]

"Why would weight training inhibit internal training whereas something like farmwork wouldn't when there is nothing DIFFERENT between lifting weights and farmwork? "


Ok, let me answer that one.The Power generation differs, and thus you will develop a different mix of muscle fibers.

Now if you train weights using internal principles, you will benefit.

But than you aren't weight lifting but using weights with internal principles.

That is already part of your IMA training, namely weapons training and so on.

Just my Opinion.

[HongKongPhooey]

I've just read through this whole thread and I'm a bit confused, not to say a little squared eyed from 6 pages. So far the only things that are different between traditionial training and modern are forms, specific weight training, and dietry suppliments. If I have this wrong please tell me.

Thanks

[dezhen2001]

also there are differences in PRINCIPLES for things like power generation, strength, posture etc. i think that's where the main part of the discussion lies. Also the difference between how we explain how to do things

david

[red_fists]

HongKongPhooey.

Those are the things on the surface, that are easily visible.

It is like trying to judge and understand a System from a Video.

Tough to do, but you will need some proper training and knowledge to really be able to judge.

How can I explain the benefits and sensations I get from doing "Zhang Zhuang"(standing medidation) for 40 minutes.

It might look strange seeing me doing it as what matters is happening internally.

I can't it is a personal feeling and experience.
Just my Opinion.

[scotty1]

"Now if you train weights using internal principles, you will benefit. " Care to expand on that?

Are you talking about different exercises, or doing them in different ways? For example, a bicep curl or a bench press. How can these be done using internal principles?

Or are there exercises using weights that can be done using internal principles that would not be recognised as a traditional western weight training exercise?

Is it your opinion that traditional Western weight training hinders internal development?

I didn't know you do Zhan Zhuang, so do I. I can only hold Lohan Embracing Buddha for about 7 minutes though, is this the posture you are talking about holding for 40 minutes?

[Royal Dragon]

There is nothing wrong with lifting and practicing internal arts. The issue is HOW do you lift?

For martial arts, we need to be following the principlas of modern strength training for sports performance, and NOT traditional body building, that's all. It's not that complicated.

Internal arts genrate power with the core body, as oppsed to the limbs. There is no reason why you can't take modern strength training for sports performance, and apply those principals to the core internal mechanics. I submit that if you did, your internal power would improve much faster than not doing so.

There is also no reason why external wieght training can't be done with an internal art. Strenght is strength, and so long as your not "Bulking Up fast", and getting really tight your going to be fine, if not greatly improve. The human body IS capable of doing both internal and external activitys, one does not need to exclude one to do the other. Infact I submit that it's a mistake to do so. The human body does not change it's requirements just because we learn Taji Quan, we still need to run, stretch and lift heavy things to be healthy. Taji Quan or internal practice cannot replace that, so it MUST be done in addition to your internal training. And yes, that includes wieghts.

Royal Dragon

[dezhen2001]

we still need to run, stretch and lift heavy things to be healthy

why do you need to do that? What about people who have done nothing but Qigong, but are still supple and flexible as well as healthy even in to old age (70+)?

david

[red_fists]

Are you talking about different exercises, or doing them in different ways? For example, a bicep curl or a bench press. How can these be done using internal principles?


Different way.
Standard weight training will often shorten your muscles.

You can train weights, but should apply the internal principles like breathing, slow movement & relexation to name a few.

Internal Martial Arts rely more on Tendon than on muscle fiber strength.


Or are there exercises using weights that can be done using internal principles that would not be recognised as a traditional western weight training exercise?

Yes, there are .
Using Steel Balls in your Hands during Forms practice. using oversized or over heavy Weapons in your Forms.

You bassically do your standard IMA training and add weights.


Is it your opinion that traditional Western weight training hinders internal development?

Yes, it can, and I have heard this echoed from a lot of Internal MA and Sifu.


I didn't know you do Zhan Zhuang, so do I. I can only hold Lohan Embracing Buddha for about 7 minutes though, is this the posture you are talking about holding for 40 minutes?

I think we call it "Holding the Tree", standard training in most IMA.

The 40 minutes is my Goal not there yet though.

But than I have multiple exercises I do for internal Development, like "Yang turning Body Palm", etc.
Peace.

[red5angel]

HKP - this is essentially the issue, the human body is limited in range of motion. Within those limits options are finite. The argument is an old one that stems back since the beginning of martial arts, is the new way better then the old way. At a certain point, there is now new way, just a different way.

Dezhen - I do not believe the principles are different, the principles are the same, the way is different.

[scotty1]

I can see how trad weight training can hinder your develpoment both internal and external if your form is bad.
But I can't see how increasing the strength in your limbs and muscles via weight training can really hinder you internally, IF your form is correct.

[dezhen2001]

how do you mean the principles are the same but the way is different?

All my previous training in boxing, muay thai and karate have really hindered me developing the correct structure and power generation in wing chun. and that's not even something like Taijiquan or Xing Yi etc. The methods to me are very different. Instead of developing the legs doing squats etc. we practise SLT for a long time (40 mins for 1 completion of the form). The feeling is totally different form doing weights and squats. The connection you develop with your body and to the ground is very different to anything i have ever done before...i've spent the last 18 months trying to unlearn everything i've done in the past, which is no easy task.

david