By my lying eyes

[benny]

He develop the base that He needed to fight against man who were much bigger and more aggressive than what he is seen back in China.
(THIS WAS DUE TO THE LACK OF HIS ABILITY NOT THE STYLE)

As I understand it, Bruce flew back to China a few times to show YIP MAN what he had done. And as I understand it (just hearsay.) YIP MAN approved of Bruce's modifications. Anyhow he continued his own training! (and DID HIS OWN THING!)
JUST HEARSAY. COMPLETE CRAP, YIP DIDNT WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM AS HE WAS HALF GERMAN.

But if you think that it's possible to be able to effectively use the mook without knowing the mook form then we would agree. However I would go a step further and say that it's possible to effectively use the mook without knowing SLT or the other two WC forms either.

HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DO TEACHES YOU WHAT YOU WANT THEN. WITHOUT CERTAIN PRICIBLES BEHIND THE MOVEMENTS THERE ARE JUST USLESS TECHNIQUES. wITHOUT THE TRAINING IN SLT AND CHUM KIU ITS LIKE STARTING A DEGREE IN SCIENCE AND NOT HAVE PASSED PRIMARY SCHOOL MATHS.

[curtis]

Come on Benny! Do you really believe that!
Too point out the problems is easy, but finding out why you have that problem is a wholly different topic.
Bruce Lee found out when he came to the United States, that he was a very small man. (135lbs and 5'9") But back in China he was average if not to say a little larger than most Chinese. (There is something to be said about size! It may not be the end all be all, BUT the Americans Bruce saw were on average a hundred pounds heavier, much more aggressive and use a completely different style of fighting then they did back in China.)
It was stated in many articles I've read, that when the Westerners came to China, the average seamen could handle all but the most skilled masters in hand-in-hand combat. The jab and basic the boxing skills of most Europeans combined with the added strength and size, made foreign sailors very affordable.
BUT WE ARE GETTING OFF THE TOIPC.
Sensitivity and developing skill was the original topic. Not why, or how good Bruce Lee was when he came to the states.
I'm not trying to compare the old ways and the new ways of doing things. I am simply trying to see, DIFFERENT ways of training for sensitivity. (It is true that classical wing chun has many answers. But I do not believe it has all of the answers.) We must search ourselves and others to fully understand this topic.
Traping is widely misunderstood even in the classical world of the martial art's.
Perhaps instead of sensitivity exercisers.
We should first explore and understand different ideas on what makes traping work.
I am out of time!
Have to run! Looking for do hear from you again.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[gungfuguy]

What is rooting? Is it stability as was suggested earlier? If that is the case, then I believe that stability and mobility are somewhat contrary concepts. You would like to find a good balance between being stable and yet mobile. I get the impression however, that rooting is more than that.

As for sensitivity, I think that exercises, per se, would not refine your sense of touch. If you practice exercises with poor sensitivity, then you will have accomplished nothing. I think the main thing is too slow way down in everything you are doing and focus all of your attention on your sense of touch; what is it telling you to do. Sometimes we want to force a movement or a technique because we feel that is the proper response; however, sensitivity will guide you to the proper response for each situation without thought, because it is based on what is felt and not what is believed. The name of this post sums it up well...Be My Lying Eyes. They will deceive you because that visual information has to be processed through your brain first and you brain will add its own interpretation to the information based on past experience, fear, doubt, anger, hatred etcetera. Touch impulses, however, are hardwired within us to bypass direct connection to the brain and to first route to the spinal cord for immediate classification and reaction. After that impulse has been "processed" in the spinal cord without the added color and bias of the brain, the signal will finally travel to the brain for interpretation. This is how we are able to jerk our hand away so quickly when we touch a hot object. For a split second it seems like someone else is controlling our movement. That sensation should come about in your sensitivity training so that at some point you are not sure "how" or "why" you responded with a certain movement...it just "felt" natural.

Scott

[curtis]

First off. Very nice article Scott.

Benny, you have made statements and accusations that I do not believe to be factual.
I do not know where you got your information about YIP Man, not liking Bruce because of his heritage. The way you state your information sounds like it is first-hand information. And because of your age ,I do not believe that is to be true.
At the very best your information can be secondhand information. And I have serious doubts if you're information is correct. (No matter how you got it.)
I have received information from two different sources , both students of Bruce Lee (so you see my information is secondhand.) as well as having read a number books on this topic. Nowhere have I found anything stating that YIP MAN dislike Bruce Lee.
Secondly
why put down Bruce Lee's arts?
It wasn't so long ago that wing chun was look down upon, because of its age (after all wing chun is at its best, around 200 years old.) wing chun is very young system compared to many martial art's.
AND if the stories of how wing chun was created art true, then Bruce Lee was doing nothing different then what the founder of wing chun did.
[So why play the classical game? ]

In short Benny,
Please do not put down one system to build another UP. You can point out many differences, and input your opinions , BUT don't throw mud! No one is going to win that game.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[jmdrake]

Hello Benny,

You said that someone was "half German". Who? Bruce Lee? Yip Man? Where on earth did you get that from?

With regards to the SLT and mook jong training, your "higher math" analogy is interesting, but non-applicable. Just ask yourself this question. How did the person who first came up with the SLT learn the movements? Certainly must be a way to learn/derive certain movements without doing a form. Oh, and come to thing of it, there are other ways to learn math and other subjects other than simply "by rote". So I guess your analogy fits after all.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Hello Scott,

You make some very valid points! I think your illustration about touching the hot stove is important. It's almost like there's a "short circuit" in our nervous systems. You don't have to consciously process drawing your hand back, it just happens! (I have a theory that this type of non-central processing is what is needed to make the next great leaps in robotics, but that's another subject.) For me the purpose of developing sensitivity is to build in such "short circuits" aka "muscle memory." But I've also seen the same thing work in visual accuity as well. Sometimes in sparring I just "hit" on an opening without really thinking about it. Or I intercept an incoming punch without having to reherse what I'm about to do in my conscious mind. The subconscous mind is much faster in my opinion.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Originally posted by gungfuguy
What is rooting? Is it stability as was suggested earlier? If that is the case, then I believe that stability and mobility are somewhat contrary concepts. You would like to find a good balance between being stable and yet mobile. I get the impression however, that rooting is more than that.

As for sensitivity, I think that exercises, per se, would not refine your sense of touch. If you practice exercises with poor sensitivity, then you will have accomplished nothing. I think the main thing is too slow way down in everything you are doing and focus all of your attention on your sense of touch; what is it telling you to do. Sometimes we want to force a movement or a technique because we feel that is the proper response; however, sensitivity will guide you to the proper response for each situation without thought, because it is based on what is felt and not what is believed. The name of this post sums it up well...Be My Lying Eyes. They will deceive you because that visual information has to be processed through your brain first and you brain will add its own interpretation to the information based on past experience, fear, doubt, anger, hatred etcetera. Touch impulses, however, are hardwired within us to bypass direct connection to the brain and to first route to the spinal cord for immediate classification and reaction. After that impulse has been "processed" in the spinal cord without the added color and bias of the brain, the signal will finally travel to the brain for interpretation. This is how we are able to jerk our hand away so quickly when we touch a hot object. For a split second it seems like someone else is controlling our movement. That sensation should come about in your sensitivity training so that at some point you are not sure "how" or "why" you responded with a certain movement...it just "felt" natural.

Scott

[planetwc]

Originally posted by Sensei Kunz
Forgive me for my ingnorance? I was informed that Bruce Leee stopped working on the Mook Jong the last few years of his life because he felt it was best to practice on human targets for better sensitivity training. Since the Mook Jong had no real movement of the human body and all individuals are different in their reactions in regards to trapping?

Sensei Kunz

He may have. However he never learned the proper structure for working on it iether. That is VERY obvious from the photos of Him with it.

Therefore, I'd presume he did his own thing.

The Jong is not just about "trapping".

[curtis]

Planetwc
I have no idea where you are coming from.
Granted the mook jong is good tool, it can be used in many different ways to perform and achieve individual goals, like stretching, flow, traping, basic foot work and reinforcing of power lines (structural integrity of your stances)

IS IT so important to use the mook jong in the classical approach?

Since I have no idea what Bruce Lee knew, or didn't known as far as the mook jong gos, I am curious, why do you (as well as others) put such importance on the mook jong for training. And how can you tell from still photo if He was doing anything incorrect?
Please believe me, I am being sincere, I do not understand your point of view.

I was taught that nothing can compare to good secondary, no matter how good a tool may be, a human is far superior for learning correctly and training probably.
.
C.A.G.

[Sensei Kunz]

You are right about that there is no better training than another human being. Bruce Lee mentioned many times that he loved teaching to students as ginea pigs and got paid for it.

Sensei Kunz

[planetwc]

Originally posted by curtis
Planetwc
I have no idea where you are coming from.
Granted the mook jong is good tool, it can be used in many different ways to perform and achieve individual goals, like stretching, flow, traping, basic foot work and reinforcing of power lines (structural integrity of your stances)



IS IT so important to use the mook jong in the classical approach?


It is just a tool. That said, if you are using it improperly to begin with, are you really getting the actual benefit of it?

If you use a slide rule as simply a ruler, a calculator or abacus as a paperweight you certainly use them as tools but not of course in their optimal use. If you hold a baseball bat or a golf club by the wrong end or with an incorrect grip your use will not be optimal. Same thing here.


Since I have no idea what Bruce Lee knew, or didn't known as far as the mook jong gos, I am curious, why do you (as well as others) put such importance on the mook jong for training.


You'd have to be doing Wing Chun with an instructor who understands and can teach you the goals and usage behind that tool and HOW it will develop your attributes.

There are many who want to buy a jong and bash the heck out of it, as if it were some makiwara. There are many even in Wing Chun who mistakenly do this.

Misusing a tool or instrument, merely means you don't get the real value of it. Using a stradivarius as a ukelele is not it's optimal implementation. Extreme examples to be sure, but hopefully you see the direction I'm going.


And how can you tell from still photo if He was doing anything incorrect?


By looking at his structure in relationship to the jong. It can be seen in some of the VERY early pictures of Lee in Seattle/Oakland.
And somewhat in the LA JKD photos. One of the functions of the jong is to serve as a protractor if you will, allowing one to train to have the right distance and spinal alignment and structure in relationship to an opponent. The pictures speak volumes about that. You recognize it when you see it, once you've seen what it should be.

You look at the leaning in of the upper body to have the hands touch the jong and it shows it right there. His range is completely off and that is why he is having to lean in to reach it! It is very glaring.

Just as one can see that early on Bruce had phenomenal hand speed, but very clumsy footwork. It is NO WONDER that he looked to fencing and boxing to fill in his gaps in that area. You can see it in the basement and parking garage chi sao sessions with Taky.


Please believe me, I am being sincere, I do not understand your point of view.

I was taught that nothing can compare to good secondary, no matter how good a tool may be, a human is far superior for learning correctly and training probably.
.
C.A.G. [/B]

The secondary you are looking for in this case is Chi Sao. It and the Jong accomplish 2 very different things. And performing it with as large a sampling of people of shapes, sizes, etc. is the best of all.

Yet we still use tools. Boxers use heavy bags, speed bags etc.
Karatemen use makiwara. Muaty Thai fighters use their pads and gloves. Wing Chun uses: The wallbag, the dummy, the knives and the pole.

Bruce dabbled with Muay Thai equipment. It was acknowledged by Dan, after the fact that at the time he trained with Thai pads Bruce was using and holding them incorrectly. Dan found that out after training with folks like Chai S.

Yet at the time, Bruce probably felt he was doing things the Muay Thai way, to dissect the (MT) approach and evaluate what was usefull as combat tools for himself. Yet he missed some very basic things in just using the equipment!

So what else was missed BECAUSE he was unware of it?
What else was discarded, BECAUSE it was never fully seen?

The same thing applies in his training of the dummy. There are key things he didn't understand or was unaware of. Hence, his approach and evolution was based on incomplete knowledge.

What I observe in JKD guys is an obsession with "trapping" as if it is the end all be all of Wing Chun "portions" of Jun Fan/JKD. Yet to a Wing Chun student such as myself, trapping is such a truly MINOR opportunistic byproduct of what we train.

Hopefully this explains things a bit more.

regards,

David

[curtis]

David
thank you for the well-written and informative commentary.
I am starting see where you are coming from. Although again I believe there may be gaps in our way of thinking.
You stated;
"You look at the leaning in of the upper body to have the hands touch the jong and it shows it right there. His range is completely off and that is why he is having to lean in to reach it! It is very glaring."

Isn't it possible that Bruce was using the mook jong differently to experiment or work on different concepts at the time of the photos? Because the leaning of the upper body is a very big element in the learning of how to use and control the bodies spring energy.

You also stated; [Just as one can see that early on Bruce had phenomenal hand speed, but very clumsy footwork. It is NO WONDER that he looked to fencing and boxing to fill in his gaps in that area.]
again perhaps just difference in ideas. (Or concepts) closing the gap (a distance range greater than your extended parameter) can be rather troublesome to say the least. So why not look outside to find out what other people do? Fencing is a art unlike any other known in China. And boxing had elements in it that again never was thought of in the Orient.
I was taught that Bruce Lee used what we call the three structural rule's to evaluate any and all techniques, those rules are.

Simplicity (it must be natural for the body to do.) Efficiency (as few moves possible) and Practicality (basically stating that it must work ON THE STREET)
any new techniques or concepts must meet to all three of these elements in order to even the look at .
Any techniques that does not meet up to the three structural rule's must be removed from your basic self-defense package. If you like a technique but it doesn't meet up to the three structural rule's, then you must keep them separate from your self-defense training.
Like the title of this forum By my lying eyes, the eyes can deceive you , not only in technique but in understanding, sometimes you just have to touch and feel to understand the point trying to be made.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

[Sensei Kunz]

Well stated!

The main core of JKD is footwork which has not been incorporated into the traditional styles, this is what made the flow of different technique applications even more useful in delivery. Without footwork from fencing then there is no JKD.

Sensei Kunz

[planetwc]

Originally posted by jmdrake
Hello Benny,

You said that someone was "half German". Who? Bruce Lee? Yip Man? Where on earth did you get that from?

With regards to the SLT and mook jong training, your "higher math" analogy is interesting, but non-applicable. Just ask yourself this question. How did the person who first came up with the SLT learn the movements? Certainly must be a way to learn/derive certain movements without doing a form. Oh, and come to thing of it, there are other ways to learn math and other subjects other than simply "by rote". So I guess your analogy fits after all.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Bruce was indeed half German on his mother's side.

Some who were jealous of Bruce used that as a reason politically within the Wing Chun school of Ip Man to force him out of Ip's main school. That said, it is more likely that Bruce ended his training with Ip Man and Wong Shun Leung simply because he emigrated to the US. His only Wing Chun contact in the US was with Fook Yeung a "Red Boat" stylist in the pacific northwest (and hence a completely different style of Wing Chun).

That said, Bruce was obviously a favorite young student of Ip Man just as William Cheung was. Therefore claims of Ip Man not "liking" Bruce are specious.

Additionally, Ip Man taught guys like Rolf Clausnitzer who (as you can tell) was obviously German. Rolf is a Wing Chun teacher under the Wong Shun Leung lineage. Wong you may remember was one of Bruce's principal teachers (in addition to Ip Man).

The bottom line is Bruce trained very hard and had good cardio by the time he went back to HK. This meant he was in better shape and was more rigorous about his training than the average student. It would give him the advantage against his lazy sidai and sihings. Mix in some youthfull arrogance along with Wing Chun aggressiveness and you will make "political" enemies.

It IS said (By Ip Man's son Ip Chun) that at one point late on Bruce went to Ip Man and offered to pay him a large amount of money or to pay for an apartment for him, if he Ip Man, would let Bruce film him doing the wooden dummy. Ip Man declined the offer. There was something about how it was presented that apparently rubbed Ip Man the wrong way, as he was known for taking sums of money for just these kinds of things.

In fact, there IS footage of Ip Man doing all the sets and the dummy. I have the footage of the first 2 sets and the dummy.
Apparently Leung Ting has the Bil Jee and perhaps the weapons footage, which it is rumored was done for some high ranking police students. It was filmed very close to his death well beyond his peak of skill or endurance. He died very shortly afterwards. So what we see on the video is a shadow of what he really was.

It is quite poignant to see Ip Man pause to rest on the jong to catch his breath and try to remember the next set of movements.
Quite sad.

[curtis]

David
you never ansered my question on the mook jong .
Granted the mook jong is a good tool, it can be used in many different ways to perform and achieve YOUR individual goals, like stretching, flow, traping, basic foot work and reinforcing of power lines (structural integrity of your stances)
BUT HOW CAN IT BE USED FOR SENSITIVITY???
C.A.G.

[Sensei Kunz]

Is your question being directed at me or the other David?

I personally feel that the mook jong is great for footwork, trapping and intercepting, however, not that great for sensitivity training. I believe the best is a human being to be able to feel the flow of energy and muscle movement of anticipation of your opponent.

Your Servant

Sensei David Kunz