Ryu's ontopic post

[Grappling-Insanity]

Well I got in a fight with a guy who had about a group of 30 friends behind him. In that fight I fell to crossbody bottom wise and still made it back to standing. The way I look at it if there gonna jump you, there gonna jump you pretty much no matter what.

[Stacey]

Its really too bad that no one ever thought of a way to immobilize an opponent while standing.

Its also too bad that no one created techniques specifically for multiple opponents.

It seems like you would need a combination of fast liner and large swinging attacks. You would need a strong base and smooth footwork to get around people.

It would also help if you knew how to throw one guy into another using body controls


Its really too bad that no one figured out how to fight this way. Oh well, looks like we have to start from scratch.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by chingei


if you're not prepared to go to ground, you have no business throwing.

Whether or not someone has training on the ground has nothing to do with the fact that it isnt a good idea to try to go to the ground against multiple opponents, the point i was trying to make.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Whether or not someone has training on the ground has nothing to do with the fact that it isnt a good idea to try to go to the ground against multiple opponents, the point i was trying to make.

not a good idea to stand up with them either. or play football with them, or run a relay race, or play poker, or hold a political debate, etc.

[straight blast]

Take this throw for instance http://www.shenwu.com/yangtchnq.htm

I had a look at that throw and I have to say that while the throw is good what is the story with the "punch" that the assailant threw? Even with the defender stepping in it still would have fallen about 2 and a half feet short of the target. Why is it that almost every Tai Chi (no disrespect, I love TaiChi) photo sequence involves defending against a punch that isn't even going to come close to hitting? Why not show a sequence where the punch looks like it's going to take the defender's head off. Is it a TaiChi ettiquite thing (serious question). It makes the technique look unrealistic.

[rogue]

Who here has actually fought in a bar brawl?

[scotty1]

ok three things.

1/ This topic (not blaming you Ryu, I know you wouldn't do it on purpose) is basically an invitation (which has been accepted) to discuss whether or not it is a good idea to go the ground or not.

Boring, discussed that.

I see the subtle difference between what you wanted and what you got though.

2/ Where are Merry's posts calling Stacey a freaking pr!ck?

Were they removed in a fit of guilt at all the bad feeling, or was Merry ( ) MODERATED?

3/ No I have not been in a bar brawl.

4/ I like sandwiches too.

[Merryprankster]

Removed out of guilt--I freely admit it. I decided to throw him on my ignore list instead.

In the words of Colin Powell--get mad, then, get over it. There's no reason for me to have been that non-constructive. It doesn't ultimately accomplish anything, and I regret that I did it.

[Paul]

see the thing is, when someone is getting beat down, and they are going down, they tend to want to grab onto something on the way down. You may not have a choice about going to the ground. get real. S h i t happens.

and yes, rouge, I've been in bar fights.

[Kristoffer]

I've see martail artist get in fights with mulitple oponents and win .. It takes the right mind to do it though, and some luck combined with alot of skill


Punch elbow throw move to the next, repeat..

[Gabriel]

Well, I believe you have to be highly mobile in a multiple attacker situation, provided you get in one in the first place, which I discussed how to avoid in another post. so, if you can be mobile on the ground, more power to you. In my kwoon, we practice very low stances, so we are practically on the ground anyway. My Sifu's teacher came to demonstrate for us one time and he got into his horse and challenged everyone in the class to try to move him. Whether it be with rooted pushing, charging, shoving, tripping, takedowns, ect., the man could not be moved an inch. Then he demonstrated speed. He is greased lightning. A guy like him, I feel can take on multiple attackers with ease, as he did with us just trying to move him, imagine if he attacked back! also, I've taken on two guys back when I was in TKD. I used very simple techniques to win. I punched the aggressor in the stomach to drop his guard around the chest neck area, then i went for a one arm choke with my right arm. Then, with my left leg I fended off the second guy with a few kicks. When the aggressor was gasping for breath and seemed less strong I squeezed a little tighter for good measure, then released him he fell to his knees. I waited for the other guy to throw a punch, then I sank a bit and lunged to the right, dodging his punch, and throwing a reverse punch to his jaw all in the same motion. Simple stuff. Thats the advantage we MA'ists have over average joes. Simple stuff works against them as opposed to all the fancy techniques that are basically used to fight other MA'ists who know how to protect against the reverse punch, or a simple choke. Well thats it for me. As for my Sifu's teacher, I have know idea how he can be so rooted unless he had lead underwear on

Forge Virtue and Honor in the hot fire of Hard Work

Gabriel

[DelicateSound]

if you start beating on their friend standing, they will jump you as well. if not, they are pussies anyway and not worth worrying about in any case.

If you go to the ground you leave yourself open to BAD **** - like kicks to the head. Stay standing and you are at a better position to look around and run if needed.

if you're not prepared to go to ground, you have no business throwing

What bullsh!t - you throw him to the floor and either kick him about or leave, why jump on top of him? Only go the the clinch if you absolutely HAVE TO - it is a disadvantaged position. This is no UFC match - this is a bar, broken glass on the floor, weapons probably, and mates around.


It's good to be trained in groundfighting in case it does go there, but IMHO it is mostly about size, weight and strength. Keep it in the range you are best at.

[chingei]

Originally posted by DelicateSound


If you go to the ground you leave yourself open to BAD **** - like kicks to the head. Stay standing and you are at a better position to look around and run if needed.

if a bunch of people want you done, you're done. Unless they are of the "gosh I wouldn't want to soil my fine garments on the dirty floor. Oh dear, there may be shards of glass that could cause a nasty infection. shouldn't we set some rules before we begin?"-type pussie, in which case they are not really interested in fighting and may be disregarded.

If you can run away from a group, they have let you run. or they are all as slow as me.

[chingei]

Originally posted by DelicateSound


What bullsh!t - you throw him to the floor and either kick him about or leave, why jump on top of him?

A telling comment indeed. If you had ever actually rolled the dice on a throw when it counts you'd know that they don't always work out the way you had planned. especially when environmental conditions are uncertain. when a throw doesn't go the way you wanted, there is a very good chance you will find yourself on the ground. if you are not prepared to deal with that likelihood, don't throw.


or be nice to people and don't get in fights.

[DelicateSound]

Chingei - you are trying to argue the use of throws in a fight to an ex Judo man here pal!

Throws are fine, they are VERY effective, especially as many people have no experience of them, and just expect to be punched. They will break sh!t.

Yes, if a throw is messed up you probably will end up hitting the floor too, but don't lie on top of the guy trying to armlock him for Christ's sake. He just HIT the floor, you stumbled to it. Get off your knees and stamp on his face for f*cks sake!!


Throws are fine as long as:

A) He ain't a big fukker.
B) He's off balance. Disorientated is good - punch him a bit.
C) You can. The move must be ingrained. But same for most sh!t I guess.



However, it is crazy to go to the ground unless necessary.


You said:

if a bunch of people want you done, you're done

You're talking 2 different situations here mate:

1) You fight a guy and know he has mates. You can see them. They WILL baste you if it gets messy. Answer: Run.

2) You're fighting a guy and his "not so good mates" or associates don't like what you're doing to him. You never saw they were his mates, you just thought they were neutral. All of a sudden they kick off.



No. 2 is VERY common. Especially in territorial areas [footy pubs...]

Now in this situation, where is the better point to be in terms of awareness, vision, ability to exit pronto, ability to hit other opponants? Yep - standing is MUCH better for this.




No?